Coffee House

Bradley Manning awaits sentence. Would the real Julian Assange please stand up?

31 July 2013

5:51 PM

31 July 2013

5:51 PM

Bradley Manning’s relationship with Wikileaks has, inevitably, brought Julian Assange back into the papers. Viewed on the frontpage, Assange is egimatic. We know what he’s done; but we know little of him. Alex Gibney’s compelling new documentary film We Steal Secrets: The Story of Wikileaks presents an extensive and revealing biography of Assange — and much more besides.

Gibney’s camera is impartial. We hear from Assange cultists, former collaborators and alleged rape victims. No two people will react in the same way to what they see. A white-haired Icarus formed before my eyes; a charismatic brought down by his own narcissism and hubris. Gibney captures one deeply ironic moment when Assange is reading fawning British newspaper coverage of his exploits and declares that he is untouchable in this country. Famous last words, Julian.

We Steal Secrets is really two films: one about Assange’s celebrity, the other about morality in a digital and political context. The latter is the more thrilling part. Most of the action follows Bradley Manning. Anyone who thinks that the Manning case is a simple matter of right and wrong ought to watch this film, for there are not enough shades of grey to depict its moral complexity.

Manning is a somewhat unsympathetic personality, at least from a distance. We hear from those who knew or served with him. And we see him authoring his own destruction:

[Alt-Text]


There is honour and right in that. Yet the clip also suggests that Manning was influenced by other, less honourable motives. He appears, to some extent, to have been using his proximity to classified documents to build friendships.

Was Wikileaks right to take advantage of this vulnerable and conflicted young man? This is one of many unanswered questions posed by Gibney. Assange is a free speech fundamentalist. And, like all fundamentalists, his attitude to ‘collateral damage’ is chilling. I’m not alone in this view; plenty of Assange’s colleagues express their discomfort to the camera. One or two profess horror.

Beyond Wikileaks, Gibney shows how digital technology is affecting government. US officials cannot agree on what to do with Pandora’s Box. Would transparency make for better policy and wider public understanding of the messier business of government (and therefore negate the wrecking, so to speak, of organisations like Wikileaks)? Or do secrets need to be kept at all costs for the greater public good?

The latter view prevails. The following clip, from which Gibney took the film’s title, partly explains why Manning has, as yet, no right to a public interest defence and why he is being treated in such a draconian fashion.

My one cavil is that Gibney does not make enough of the futility that underlines the Manning case; because, despite Julian Assange’s dubious efforts, the world has not changed one iota. Did Wikileaks actually achieve much more than the brief aggrandisement of itself and the even briefer embarrassment of the United States? And, as a counterpoint to that, should Manning’s sentence be merciful?

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Show comments
  • kyrieeleison

    “…the futility that underlines the Manning case; because, despite Julian Assange’s dubious efforts, the world has not changed one iota.”

    Is that so? Speak for yourself, sunshine! You plainly ain’t payin attention. The world may not have changed in your rarified neck of the woods, but I can assure you that there are many many people all over the world who see otherwise, and they’re the people who were suffering from the abuses that Bradley Manning and Julian Assange exposed. THEY think the world has changed!

    And Edward Snowden, who was inspired by Bradley Manning – well, you see, he saw the world had changed, too, because of the brave example of the whistleblower who went before him. And we are just now beginning to see huge cracks appear in that seemingly impervious edifice of the military-industrial complex that runs the US (and thus the world) which, since 9/11 has given us the horrors of Guantanamo, the legitimisation of torture and the privilege of having all our communications tapped by spies. The Amash amendment on the NSA was only defeated in Congress by 12 VOTES – watch this space – those ‘worldwide discussions debates and reforms’ that Bradley was seeking, are rollin on…

    Maybe it aint so in there where you are, but for sure – ‘there’s a battle outside and it’s ragin’

  • Drakken

    Manning deserves a good hanging and Assuange deserves a well placed bullet.

    • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

      “Assuange deserves a well placed bullet”

      Uninteresting, emptyheaded post – as well as an incitement to violence.

      And twice now, you have failed to spell Assange’s name correctly.

      It is not “Assuage” or “Assuange”.

      Not the brightest of sparks, are you?

      • Drakken

        Traitors deserve neither sympathy nor empathy period. Useful idiots of the left like you are a pox upon our western nations.

  • Terence Hale

    Hi,
    Bradley Manning awaits sentence. Would the real Julian Assange please stand up? One occurrence has escaped the media regarding Mr. Manning. Mrs. Clinton was the “Perpetuum mobile” behind the witch hunt against Mr. Manning. As potential President Candidate she may regret this.

  • Eddie

    The USA automatically supports any American arrested, charged and put on trial abroad, even if there is a mountain of evidence for their guilt (e.g. the young woman in Italy charged with killing a British girl). That goes for people who are half-American or who grew up there too.
    The UK does not do this, except if Brits are arrested in the Third World. If a Brit is arrested in the USA – we kowtow and pander to the (very flawed) US Justice system.
    Bradley Manning has a Welsh mother and went to school in Wales. He should at the very least be transferred to a prison here; he should also be allowed to appeal his sentence here.
    Bradley Manning exposed a huge weakness in US security – for that, the American people should be thanking him. He is being scapegoated for 1) a shoddy leaky US security system where data is not kept safe; 2) the sheer criminal activity of the US military and its leaders that he exposed: just watch the footage of American idiots shooting up innocent men, including journalists. Just vile. The behaviour of a bully. If any country did that to Americans, they’d be condemned and then bombed. So why not bomb America? One can see the reason why people do now.
    Also, it is about time we tore up the extradition treaty with the US: they expect us to extradite anyone they want, even British citizens; they hardly ever extradite American suspects to face trial here.

    • Greenslime

      This is not whistleblowing. This is the mass release of unfiltered information without regard for who may have been hurt by the
      release of it.

      Much of the information may have been harmless. There may have been some whistleblowable stuff in there too. But that is almost accidental and, anyway, a red herring. Intelligence is about the whole picture, not just the tiny piece you happen to be looking at. It’s a murky world out there and everyone is up to it. Blunderbussing a load of stuff onto the open media merely to embarrass a government, any government, is grossly irresponsible. What makes it even worse is who these people run to to hide behind. It shows that Assange and Snowden and their ilk are not able to think in a connected way. They are right and everyone else is wrong. They think in little boxes, all of which are locked off from the others. That way they don’t have paradoxes to deal with and can rationalise their ‘publish and be damned’ approach.

      Manning did not hand a couple of documents to Wikileaks which troubled him. He handed them hundreds of thousands of documents, most of which he will not have even looked at, let alone assessed their damage potential.

      Nor could he have known if anyone would have been hurt or even killed as a result of the release of the documents because he could not certain that he had access to all of the information – which he almost certainly didn’t. And whilst Assange’s Wikileaks may have been in a position to leaf through the information in a more leisurely way nor were they in a position to properly assess the damage potential because it would have been impossible for them to every every little piece of information which created the full picture.

      I do worry that such a gullible idiot was able to access such a large amount of classified information, apparently unsupervised, and that he could copy it and walk out the door with it. But that is a separate matter and I am sure that the Americans are reviewing that constantly. But all of that is a separate issue – combining those arguments is like saying that you blame the checkout assistant in Tesco for selling a murderer the knife he murdered his wife with.

      Manning knew what he was doing was wrong. He should rot in (an American) jail and Assange and Snowden should join him at the first opportunity. Two are traitors and the other is a dangerous lunatic.

      • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

        International law requires that people – even soldiers – expose war crimes.

        • Greenslime

          If he had only done that, there would be no issue.

          Please read what I posted.

        • Drakken

          So called international law does not in any way shape or form null and void national sovereignty.

  • Daniel Maris

    Manning deserved a big slap on the wrist…five years in prison perhaps.

    Assange may be unlikeable but being unlikeable is not a criminal offence. It is shameful on us that he is having to hole himself up in that confined space.

    • Andy

      I would prefer he was holed up in a cell in Wandsworth Prison. I’ve read most of the judgements in the Assange Case and there is a clear case for him to answer in Sweden. He should stop being a silly little child and go and fight that case.

      As far as we are concerned Assange has received Justice, just as you or I would do. What is ‘shameful’ is that silly people like you do not uphold the rule of law.

    • Drakken

      Manning deserves a good hanging like the traitor he is. Assuage deserves a well placed bullet.

      • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

        “Assuage deserves a well placed bullet.”

        Same post as before Drakken. Uninteresting, emptyheaded – as well as an incitement to violence.

        • Drakken

          I guess truth is the new hate speech, traitors deserve their fates.

  • ArchiePonsonby

    Saw an interview with Manning’s odious father once. He’s one of the “stick-him-in-the-Army-to-make-a-man-of-him” types. No wonder the kid’s conflicted!

  • Austin Barry

    If Assange had any guts or integrity he would emerge from the Ecuadorian embassy and man-up. But as a self-regarding, alleged rapist, courage and integrity are probably minor or non-existent attributes of this apparent sociopathic.

    Manning is a dwarf inadequate with complex issues to do with masculinity. I fear for his welfare should he end-up in Leavenworth Penitentiary where that issue will be put to neverending stress tests.

    • ArchiePonsonby

      Assange is right up himself, as his countrymen would have it!

    • Noa

      I have occasionally wondered if, in the confined space of the embassy, Mr Assange has fully resolved the profound issues of personal hygiene of which we have been made aware, or whether the Ambassador has been compelled to raise the matter from time to time,.Especially when, in the recent heatwave,the temperature rose to that of Quito.

      • Daniel Maris

        Oh – another politico-sado. Nice.

        • Noa

          That was my point. In fact they do already.

      • Nicholas chuzzlewit

        Good point. He must be like an overripe Camembert by now.

    • Daniel Maris

      Austin, as a fan of your posts more often than not, I think that one’s beneath you.

      Did you ever read the witness statements on the alleged “rapes” ?… Assange is a “bad sex-ist” not a rapist. Many men are bad sex-ists…in fact probably most (heterosexual men that is) are…they only ever do it when drunk and then very quickly with no regard for the woman.

      Manning may need manning-up but he has done us a useful service as did the Bolsheviks in 1917 when they released all those diplomatic telegrams and revealed what was going on behind the patriotic circus. To wish a-rape on anyone in a prison environment is not a nice thing to do. Your mother wouldn’t be pleased with you…if she would be, then I’d hate to meet your mother.

      On the matter of dwarfism – that is not yet a criminal offence. But I am sure Cameron, Osborne and Shapps are working on it at the behest of Crosby as it would be a popular policy.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        ‘Many men are bad sex-ists…in fact probably most… only ever do it when drunk and then very quickly with no regard for the woman’

        Speak for yourself.

        Assange is (probably) not a rapist, but by the tortured mores of the fetid leftist pool he swims in, and by which he judges the rest of us, he most likely is.

      • Nick Backstrom

        The British judges have read those statements, and heard from all parties, and have much more information than you and I or anyone else, and they think Assange has a case to answer.

    • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

      @AustinBarry

      Rape jokes aren’t funny.

      Your post is totally uninteresting and consists of nothing but ad hominem attacks.

      From behind a screen.

      Do you think that you are a psychiatrist or something?

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Huh? Prison rape jokes are often funny, particularly those clever enough to imply it without mention, as this one. It’s both amusing and respectful of the readers who don’t want explicit mention of the act. Nannies like you just want to censor, is the real problem here.

        That post was quite interesting, and fyi, ad hom is a quite welcome adjunct to discussions re public figures. Public figures are well known, mostly by their own choice and hand, and will survive attacks false or hyperbolic, unlike others. Ad hom is perfectly acceptable in such cases, as those cases will live on well past any potential shock of ad hom, as the chaff will blow away in the duration.

        • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

          Presumably, you also make jokes about women being raped.

          Disgusting.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            No, your presumption would be false.

            But as a point of reference, false presumption is often a tool you censorious nannies use to enforce your attempts to squelch free speech, freedom and liberty.

            Disgusting.

            • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

              So, you think that jokes about men being raped is OK, but not jokes about women being raped.

              Interesting.

              Do you make jokes about men being killed and/or mutilated too?

              Yep. You probably do.

              Perhaps you should look at yourself more deeply, and try to understand why you get turned on by the notion that raping men is funny.

              I notice that you also also keep referring to the men round here as “lad” and “laddie”.

              So, presumably, you like to think of other men as little boys.

              Trust me. You need help.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                No, again, your presumptions would be false, and appear to be moving toward the fantastical and deviant now. Is there anything you want to tell us, lad?

                It’s amusing that not only do you spend an abundance of time fantasizing what others might be experiencing, and nattering about what they should be thinking, but you also take pains prescribing what they need to do about their incorrect thoughts.

                Classic nanny behaviors. Unfortunately, the world doesn’t respond to you nannies, other than with scorn, which you’ll learn over time.

                Grow up, lad.

  • the viceroy’s gin

    The real kerfuffle here was that a forward operating, low level, intelligence clerk in Iraq somehow gained access to sensitive diplomatic and military information, meaning the US government was too dumb to keep the secrets it thought it was keeping. And they were embarrassed by this, which they should be.

    This isn’t to deflect attention from Manning, but in the modern age, you might as well expect that such things are bound to occur now and again. Best to minimize the amount of classified information, and put a proper lock on the minimal remainder.

    I must say, most of the diplomatic information released at the time was congruent with any knowledgeable view of the world. I found myself nodding my head and agreeing with much of it. It may have been embarrassing, but it was also reassuring, that the obvious things were often being said. That’d be a good reason to let loose more information rather than classifying it.

    • dalai guevara

      You apologise for the police state.
      Everything is classified, and every little wiener has access to it. A time bomb, frankly, as Snowden and others after him will prove.

      ‘Some 1,271 government organizations and 1,931 private companies work on
      programs related to counterterrorism, homeland security and
      intelligence in about 10,000 locations across the United States.’

      source: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/

      You are fascinated by Gleichschaltung – you’ve got it. No need to visit East Berlin, move to the States.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Oh no, laddie. I believe in free speech, unlike you socialist nutters.

        I want more free speech, you want less. Which is what you socialists do. You seek to destroy freedom and liberty, not raise it up.

        No need to accuse others of what you yourself do, lad. That’s the classic socialist dodge, long ago exposed.

        • Daniel Maris

          Do you? So you condemn the Franco regime?

          • the viceroy’s gin

            What is it you’re ranting about now, laddie?

            Perhaps you should consult the voices in your head again. They seem to have all your answers.

            • Daniel Maris

              It’s a simple question…you claim to be battling for “freedom and liberty” (maybe there’s a clue in the redundancy there)…so looking back over your lifetime, presumably you can tell us which systems of government you think meet your standards of “freedom and liberty”. It’s a simple question: does the Franco regime deserve to be condemned as being a system of government that did not offer freedom and liberty.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                You socialist nutters can demand answers to whichever “simple questions” you like, laddie. That doesn’t mean any of us have to bother with your kookery.

                You’re the NSDAPer here, lad. You’re the one who speaks openly about internment camps, child confiscations and authoritarian socialism. You fit right in with history’s fascist crowd. You relish what they relished.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                Well Gordon Brown’s effort certainly does not fall into the “Freedom and Liberty” bracket.

              • Drakken

                Lets see what ole Franco did, he kept the communists out, he kept the break away provinces a part of the country and unified it, kept Spain out of the war and the muslims in line and ushered in democracy, so how was he a bad guy again?

        • dalai guevara

          You apologised, there and then, above for all to read.
          And you write like a lower ranked sergeant from the McCarthy era. Yes, you too could be dangerous if you wanted to be.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            No, lad, no need for you to fantasize about what I or anybody else has said. We’ll just say it, plainly, if we want it said, which you’d do well to learn how to do. Your fantasies about what we say mean nothing. Those fantasies go along with your socialist zeal for censorship. Apparently, as you can’t censor what we say, you try to change it by fantasy, to suit your socialist needs. Sorry, but that classic socialist dodge is long ago found out, as well.

          • Drakken

            The problem is in your little missive, McCarthy was right.

      • Daniel Maris

        He’s in the States.

  • dalai guevara

    Apologies James but this is irrelevant – on the topic of free societies, would you consider this?
    ‘The Home Secretary annouces ban on unlicences private investigators, which will be subject to strict ID and criminal record checks and will from now on require a licence.’
    This country is going right down the fascistoid pan.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      …and you and the other censoring nannies are doing your socialist best to get it there.

      • dalai guevara

        Ah, you see I have been waiting for that response.
        Please specify where Leveson suggests private investigators right across society ought to be regulated.
        Thanks in advance.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          No need to “specify” anything you socialist nutters demand, laddie. Go back to the politburo and make your demands.

          We just need to point out that you socialist nutters want to steal freedom and liberty, and censor anything you disagree with. It’s what you types do.

          • dalai guevara

            I don’t – do keep up old chap.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Of course you do. You don’t like what’s being said, and you want to silence it, by any means necessary, with whatever censorship tools can be had.

              It’s what you socialists always do. You despise freedom and liberty, and seek to destroy them.

              • dalai guevara

                I don’t, please do keep up old chap.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Yes, you do.

                  Of course, you could always denounce all your posts crying out for censorship and theft of free speech.

                  Have at it, lad.

          • Daniel Maris

            So do you condemn the Franco and Pinochet regimes for their appalling crimes against freedom and liberty VG?

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Do you, laddie?

              You’re the NSDAPer, afterall.

            • Drakken

              Versus what you communist want to do? Franco and Pinochet were nice guys compared to the communist.

  • HookesLaw

    We don’t see many Russian or Chinese traitors running to Assange.

    • Curnonsky

      Assange has cultivated a close relationship with Putin’s FSB.

    • Hexhamgeezer

      ….or hear of efforts to source them.

  • http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/ Justathought

    Responding specifically to your last paragraph PEW Research polls published last week for NBC/WSJ show that for the first time restricting civil liberties is now of greater concern than anti-terrorism policies.

    The research shows 56% are more concerned about privacy rights being intruded upon by government with anti terrorism policies in second place at 36%.

    • HookesLaw

      Until the next explosion.
      Set against that if terrorism is the only weapon in a terrorists arsenal then he is disarmed if we refuse to be terrorised.
      And opposed to that is the notion that terrorism has taken on a life of its own for these people, and in the manner of Verloc and his friends it does not matter how fatuous it has hall become.

  • Hexhamgeezer

    The only unifying traits I can see with Manning and Assange are narcissism and cowardice. As for motivation, Assange’s is merely hackneyed old anti-west ill thought liberal student bllx while Manning’s seems to be of a more base nature. To betray your colleagues, never mind your country, in the service of one’s ego is disgusting although I suspects dave’s coalition chums are pretty ambivalent.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      …trayed roll, monsoor.

    • John Jefferson Burns

      Manning is that most disgusting of souls, a traitor to his country.
      His fate should equate to the Boston Marathon Bombers.

    • Adrian Drummond

      Those people (especially the young media savvy ones) who have not taken their queue from the main stream media (and this documentary – as portrayed by its title) realize that there is far more to this issue than is immediately apparent. Characterizing Manning and Assange as you have done does little more than illustrate this point. Unfortunately, unless time and trouble is spent examining the issue in greater detail, the vast majority of people will remain in the dark.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        I’m all ears..

  • CharlietheChump

    Manning signed up and broke the rules while still serving. He should go down for a long time.
    The concern about freedom, free speech, does not depend upon this sad, friendless loser.

    • ArchiePonsonby

      Saw an interview with Manning’s odious father once. He’s one of the “stick-him-in-the-Army-to-make-a-man-of-him” types. Far from impressed. No wonder the kid’s conflicted!

  • thucydides

    I am a little tired of the glamorisation of Assange.
    Gilbey feeds this and a boycott is the best plan here.
    I sympathise with Manning but when all is said and done he pledged a military oath to his country and has broken it.

    • dalai guevara

      Thing is, he hasn’t. He will be sentenced for what effectively constitutes ‘theft’.

      For 136 years???

      • the viceroy’s gin

        False.

        He took an oath of enlistment, and is being prosecuted under the UCMJ.

        • dalai guevara

          ‘I, vicedude the great, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic’

          domestic in this instance.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            No, still no possibility of deciphering what you’re babbling about, laddie.

            Try Cyrillic. We’re begging you.

            • dalai guevara

              The oath dude, the oath – that’s the oath
              Have you gone all yoghurty Greek again?

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Nope, still indecipherable, laddie.

                Cyrillic. Try the Cyrillic. It may be your only hope.

                • Daniel Maris

                  Clearly you don’t speak Plain English…

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Well, perhaps not the one the voices in your head are using.

            • Daniel Maris

              Have you ever tried reading the words consecutively – rather than jumbled up through the prism of Francoist prejudice.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Is that what the voices in your head told you to post?

                • Daniel Maris

                  No, that’s what the cut and paste tool told you.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  So you’re a cut and paste tool?

              • Drakken

                You seem to have a real hard on for ole Franco.

          • Daniel Maris

            Quite. At heart, the USA is a popular democracy. My view is he was wayward but not grossly culpable. As a citizen he failed to weigh up the damage to the USA internationally but this sentence on him is obscene.

            • dalai guevara

              yes,

              it can be construed that he is a whistleblower,
              it can be construed that he is an idiot,
              it can be construed that he caused diplomatic embarassment
              it can be construed that he’s a weido, holds child abuse images, dresses in girl’s clothes, has a lapdacing girlfriend, locks himself up in suitcases – all this was done with various other ‘spies’, if you kindly recall,

              it can be construed that he is not a good American.

              What matters here is that America cannot AFFORD to not lock him up and that it’s immaterial whether any of the above is a true or false claim.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                Indecipherable nonsense as usual.

                • dalai guevara

                  You demonstrate yet again that you are incapable of thinking laterally.
                  No matter what BM did, we will serve time – it’s his fate. That is the Islamic way of life.

                • Drakken

                  He deserves a good hanging.

                • dalai guevara

                  In the world I inhabit, no man can make that call.

            • Drakken

              Manning violated is oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United Sates, he is a traitor perid and deserves a good hanging but the PC types gave him a jail sentence.

    • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

      Soldiers are required by international law to expose war crimes.

      • Drakken

        So called international law does not null and void national sovereignty no matter what you communist say.

  • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

    Governments seem to want secrecy for themselves, but not for anybody else.

    Secrecy can protect countries. True.

    But secrecy can also protect inviduals.

    And how can goverrnments ever be held to account if they are spying on everybody? Because, eventually, they will use the information that they gather to undermine any person or group that they don’t like.

    They will, effectively, reign supreme – as an elite. An elite that can shape democratic thought to its own purposes.

    Bit by bit, they get complete control.

    • CharlietheChump

      It’s a bit late to notice that elites accrete power to themselves.
      This is not new, just technologically easier. Even in the ’30’s the Secret Services could easily find all they needed on their targets.

      • Daniel Maris

        LOL – does anyone believe the security services weren’t monitoring library loans in the 1950s?

        • the viceroy’s gin

          They were if you NSDAPers had your way.

          • Daniel Maris

            So you’re denying the UK security services monitored library loans? I think you’ve been caught out here VG. Rather than making some manic allegation you’ve specifically denied something is a fact so tomorrow I will research that and let you have the results.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Wow, those voices in your head seem to be telling you a lot now.

              You’re even researching what they’re telling you.

              • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

                Daniel is correct. They monitored library loans.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Yes, today’s NSDAP and yesteryear’s believe similarly, no doubt.

                  The problem is that today’s NSDAP wants to use yesteryear’s theft of freedom and liberty as an excuse for today’s theft of freedom and liberty, and with far more available tools to do the thieving.

                  Fascism is fascism, as we see.

                • Drakken

                  I really wish you wouldn’t call them fascist, these leftist/regressives are following the communist playbook.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  You know, I think it’s both.

                  Today’s Left follows the marcusean playbook, and that is a blending of both strains of leftism: Fascism and communism. They both believe in seizing power, and then reeducating the people after they’ve been subjected to authoritarian control. Dictatorship is a prime aim, in both cases. Full-on propaganda wars are fought on both sides of the takeover. They’ll creep along and take what they can get, as they move along, but they will always be ready to pounce and seize whatever more is available.

                • Drakken

                  These communists are following Alinski’s Rules for radicals to a tee. If these commi’s get their way we be ushered into a new dark age, God help us all if they get power.

                • ArchiePonsonby

                  They already have. See Barack Obama.

            • arnoldo87

              Daniel – don’t waste your time.TVG and his ilk are not interested in facts or even the balance of arguments on an issue.
              They just want to parade their prejudices to each other in much the same manner as a mutual admiration society.

      • http://www.angryharry.com/ Angry Harry

        It’s certainly late, but surely no-one here wants to exist a large, powerful section of government which cannot even be monitored by the topmost elected representatives in the country.

        Do we really trust a hugely powerful group of tens of thousands of government operatives without having strong oversight of what they get up to?

        Including war crimes, murder, subversion, total surveillance capabilities and with thousands of operatives posing as commenters on websites etc etc.

        Well, that’s what the Americans seem to have got at the moment.

        And 205 members of Congress (out of 422) have just voted to curtail the NSA’s program so worried are they about the lack of accountability that this hidden state within a state seems to demand.

        Fine, the NSA needs to surveille in secrecy. We understand.

        But they must be overseen by OUR representatives.

  • Robert_Eve

    What a pair of idiots.

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