19 June 2013

3:32 PM

19 June 2013

3:32 PM

I don’t think, so far as I can remember, that I have ever previously found any sympathy with the sayings of top Islamist cleric Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi. But I do appreciate his recent sentiment that Hezbollah is in fact not the ‘Army of God’ but rather the ‘Army of Satan.’ And I can find only one fault in his recent rallying cry, backed by the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Abdul Aziz al-Asheik (with whom he has usually disagreed), that ‘every Muslim trained to fight and capable of doing that [must] make himself available’ for Jihad in Syria against Bashar al-Assad and Hezbollah.

The powerful downside, of course, is the continuing civilian tragedy in Syria. So might not all sides – endorsed by Shia and Sunni leaders alike – agree that the innocent Syrian people do not need to get caught up in this fight? Perhaps they can find a piece of ground outside any civilian areas where this grand jihad can take place. Then the extremists who follow Sheikh Qaradawi ought certainly to take up his call and really go for it. If Sunni extremists of an al-Qaeda bent wish to fight to the death with Hezbollah, then who are we to stand in their way?

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Show comments
  • independent_voice1

    This blog has been running for over a month and I have used my skills as a Systems Analyst to look at the postings of a couple of contributors. This is a short piece, only 205 words and it mentions two countries, Saudi Arabia and Syria, and two terrorist organisations, al-Qaeda and Hezbollah.

    Yet two contributors regularly change the agenda to suit their own purposes, to attack Israel, Zionists and Jews in general, irrespective of relevance At the time of writing, there have been 331 postings in total. My first subject is ProffessorPlum, who cannot even spell his avatar name but criticises others for spelling and grammar. He is an admitted Muslim and contributed 29 postings, around 9% of the total. His postings attracted 57 positive votes but 242 negatives. Of the positives, almost half came from one person, Treebrain. Of the respondents directly to him, they attracted 42 negatives and 433 positives. Almost all his postings included a reference to Israel or Jews.

    And then there is Treebrain, with a total of 83 postings, 25% of the grand total; 36 of them attracted no positives at all. 54 liked what he said and 274 did not. 47 of the likes came from a Dalek but none from Plum. The people who responded directly to Plum attracted 64 positives and 26 negatives and almost the postings made reference to Israel or the Jews.

    Treebrain even poses the question “in what way am I a racist?” Racist? I believe the statistics coupled with the content of the postings answer that. I would question why the two are allowed free range to hijack blogs?

  • Kate HA

    What we are witnessing is not multiculturalism, it is a violent attempt
    made by guests in various countries to devour their hosts whole, along
    with their houses and property, culture and legacy [Jihad]. For anyone who has
    not been paying attention, the Arab Spring has arrived in Europe, and it
    would be a good idea to get ready to deal with it.

    (Anat Berko has spent 15 years interviewing those involved in every
    aspect of the suicide bombing industry. Her parents fled Iraq, but had
    been there for generations. She knows the Arab world and she warns the
    west that the Arab Spring is coming their way.)

  • Old Fox

    Glad to see you oppose intervention, Mr Murray. Perhaps now you realise the folly of any western intervention in that benighted region? Whether it was the gung-ho neo-con nonsense of Iraq or the pie-eyed left wing cant about an “Arab Spring”, the error has been to discount the appalling effect upon society of Islam. Until the Arabs can emerge from beneath the chains of their religion, then their lands will know nothing but perpetual winter. The great opportunity for such an escape – mid-century, post war, when rationalism enjoyed a sort of global heyday – was squandered on a form of national socialism. So the swamps of poverty and passivity endured and nurtured the fanatics like flies. Surely the best we can do is to contain the area; bring down and if possible reverse the suicidal levels of Islamic immigration into Europe and cultivate alternative sources of energy as rapidly and as ruthlessly as possible – nuclear power, fracking, remnants of coal – you name it, so that we can detach ourselves from the whole blasted dust bowl completely.

  • Daniel Maris

    The latest form of Jihad – to stop Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller gaining entry into the country. I am not particularly sympathetic to their tea party politics or their cosying up to EDL. But I do value their exposure of the Sharia promoters and I know of nothing they have done that suggests they are not democrats.

    • David Lindsay

      Ordinarily, I would be all in favour of keeping Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, among numerous other people including Mohammad Al-Arefe, out
      of the United Kingdom.

      But in the present climate, by all means let in Spencer, at least. He makes great play of his Melkite affiliation and of his Middle Eastern roots. Let him be asked, therefore, about the treatment of Arab Christians in general, and of Melkites in particular, by the invaders of and insurgents in Syria. Let him be asked about the treatment of Arab Christians in general, and of Melkites in particular, in the Holy Land.

      He might also be asked to explain those situations to the undoubted star of this week’s Question Time, Douglas Murray’s publisher and editor-in-chief, Melanie Phillips. She complains, not without cause, that in 1982 a colleague on The Guardian referred to the war between Israel and Lebanon as “your war”. Yet in 2013, she left us in no doubt what she meant by “Western interests”. She referred to Israel as “us”. Twice.

      It was very sad to watch. How long has she been doing this? And yet she
      insulted the audience. She is losing it. She may already have lost it. And I have defended her in the past. Not because I agreed with her, but because of the explicit misogyny and implicit anti-Semitism of some of her more abusive critics. I still think that on many domestic policies, hers is an important voice. As she demonstrated against Russell Brand when the topic for discussion was drugs.

      In relation to Syria, she also talked about a current actor called “the Soviet Union”. There can be no denying that there are those for whom this one has the lot: the chance to attack all five of Iran, the beating heart of pan-Arabism, the defenders of Lebanon’s southern frontier, the ancient indigenous Christians of the Levant (and of Iran), and the power against which they themselves harbour an ancestral bitterness which during the Cold War became bound up with Trotskyism and thus made a doubly important contribution to the emergence of neoconservatism.

      Thus did the Ramshackle Nasty Empire, which was always going to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions, and which was never a viable or even an aspirant military threat to the West, become the Evil Empire, like something out of Star Wars.

      Those overlapping hostilities towards Iran, pan-Arabism, the Great Lebanese Experiment, Christianity both in the region and in general, and Russia, are most emphatically not “Western interests”. Those who hold such attitudes are most emphatically not “us”. Are they, Robert Spencer? Well, are they? Just this once, come over here and tell us.

      • Daniel Maris

        Well I tend to agree with you about Melanie Phillips. I was pretty supportive of her in the period after 9-11 – if only as a corrective to those prepared to trade our freedom for an illusory security.

        However gradually one notices how her every opinion tracks Israeli foreign policy. She wouldn’t even attack Israel’s cosying up to genocidal China. She certainly wouldn’t attack Israel’s illegal colonisation of the West Bank. She seems determined not to notice the growing religiosation of Israel.

        I would agree she has lost it…

        • David Lindsay

          There was a question about Israel’s nuclear weapons. But only Boris Johnson’s answer was broadcast. One really does have to wonder why.

          • Treebrain

            Everyone knows that Israel was the state that introduced nuclear weapons into the region.

            Israel is not a member of the IAEA.

            Iran WILL become a nuclear power in a year or so.

            Israel can do nothing to prevent this event, despite all the hot air about a ‘red line’, because Israel is impotent and is not able to undertake any effective military action against Iran.

  • Shoe On Head

    “Yes, reason has been a part of organised religion, ever since two nudists took dietary advice from a talking snake.” ― Jon Stewart

    no article of faith or religion can ever be peaceful and incontrovertibly true.

    (shoe on head)

  • The Elderking

    There is a piece of land, not too far away from Damascus.

    It’s in the plains of Esdraelon nr the city of Megiddo or Armageddon as it is also known.

    Spooky really…

  • Nick

    Modern day savages…….the lot of them.
    And to think that Tony Idiot Blair allowed thousands of them to come to the UK (and I still don’t quite know why)to spread their bile.And then the idiot (that’s also his middle name)told us that we must fight against radical islam….WTF?
    And now the Blair clone called David I’m a lying b—–d Cameron loves the them as well.
    Do these idiots not realise that their thinking processes are knackered?

  • crosscop

    Just been on the Daily Telegraph reading the Saddiq Khan article whitewashing Islam. I wrote out the following comment – “The comments will shortly be closed” but when I tried to post it, the comments were closed! They really hate it at the DT when people tell the truth about Islam.

    • Daniel Maris

      DT has become ET = alien.

  • andy_gill

    I agree with Douglas. The Sunni-Shia conflict is a traditional pillar of Islamic culture, and to discourage its full expression would be patronising and orientalist.

    We in the west should respect this ancient Islamic custom of mutual throat-slitting, rape and martyrdom. Funds should be made available from the aid budget, and it should be taught in schools.

    • Icebow

      [Reply also to Augustus.] And while it’s going on, we should perhaps concentrate on undermining, and finding new ways to undermine, the Leftie evil, the better to mop up Mohammedanism later.

      • J Simson

        Even better get the Muslims and the lefties to fight with each other.

        Grab some popcorn and watch the show 🙂

        • Icebow

          That would perhaps be ideal, but how might it be done?

          On the one hand, the liberal-Left. Here we have multifarious intelligence (to be honest) governed by an underlying stupidity. It should be clear to them that progressive Islamization would lead to a situation in which all their ‘equality, diversity, and human rights’, not to mention art and music, were utterly undone; yet it remains unclear to them.

          On the other hand, the ratchet of the Terminator Faith. The moderates are are useful in their moderation, of course, to the real Mohammedans, those seeking the fulfilment of the Project of the Muslim Brotherhood (Google it). Such moderates may be regarded as the soft head of the Mohammedan penis, which ultimately has only rape on the agenda.

          I have before compared the liberal-Left to HIV, with Mohammedanism the opportunistic infection. If you can find a way to liberate the liberal-Left from its governing delusion, you will deserve a Nobel Peace Prize, for you’ll have saved much bloodshed.

          I note that Radio 4 is having a dystopian-futures season: no mention of Mohammedanism noticed so far.

          • Old Fox

            Indeed, no; the most obvious mortal threat to the West is all but ignored by the media. When one considers the part played in films by the whole of the Cold War and the communist threat, our current silence about Islam is all the more remarkable. Who would dare subject it to the mockery meted out to Christianity? Who would attempt a play or a film depicting its founder? Is it so difficult to advance a dystopia from these suggestive premises? Then there are those parts of our cities which are already under the control of fanatical Islamic vigilantes. Does it take much of an imagination to spread the circumstance more broadly? Especially given differential birth rates and the prevalence of middle eastern names in countries such as Belgium. So what’s up?

            It is my belief that the communists once exposed and denounced in popular entertainment have taken control of the “commanding heights” of the media. Far from wishing to draw attention to our danger, their aim is its continued disguise.They have no compunction about this: destroying the West has been their aim since the middle of the nineteenth century; if the workers won’t rebel then let former colonials – see Lenin on “Imperialism”.

            As for those who can see the trouble brewing and wish to speak up, apart from the social and legal pressure upon them to conform, they are bitterly aware of how near we are now, to disaster. It is almost too late for a successful “dystopia” to serve its function.

            • Icebow

              Thanks. All very depressing. Does anyone know a rich philanthropist of some non-Soros variety, who might be prepared to put up a very serious prize for the best Islamogenic dystopia (open to novelists, playwrights, and screenwriters)?

            • Drakken

              The muslims will force us infidels to act soon enough, it will be called cowboys and muslims.

  • Augustus

    The Sunni and Shiite denominations of Islam have been intolerant of each other since the inception of the Shia belief system in the cult of the Mahdi. They have literally slaughtered each other for over a thousand years. The Mahdi (“the prophesied redeemer of Islam who will rule for seven, nine or nineteen years (according to various interpretations) before the Day of Judgment and will rid the world of evil.”) A kind of warrior Christ like figure who will return to rule Islam and the world when the world is thrown into complete chaos. It is the duty of all Shiites to create world wide chaos to bring about the return of the Mahdi. The Shia sect is a doomsday cult with a violent blood thirsty twist which must be quelled.

    But it is not the West’s interests to help radical religious Sunni’s like al Qaeda either. The Russians and Chinese see a profit opportunity to sell armaments and technology to the Iranians in exchange for money and energy supplies. No doubt the double-dealing French are quietly selling the Syrians and Iranians arms as well given their past associations. The point about the West’s support is that it could make Syria ungovernable and thus thwart Shiite aspirations of becoming the leading sect of Islam but at the same time tie up radical religious Sunni groups in a never ending war of attrition. So if winning in Syria for the West is losing by having al Qaeda govern Syria, then a stalemate is the best possible outcome until the fires of religious fanaticism burn themselves out by getting all the Sunni radicals and Shiite cultists to kill each other off or at least greatly lessen their overall numbers. But of course this is a strategic manoeuvre that lefties hate because it makes them out to be warmongers and risks them being seen as no different to Bush or Reagan.

    • Beauchard

      Actually, not a bad analysis.
      The money Russia is making in Syria is rarely mentioned as a major reason for its support of the Assad regime.
      One point you do not mention is the negative consequences for Iran of having to bankroll the Syrian government forces. This, together with the sanctions, is destroying the Iranian economy.
      The longer the war continues, the more the Iranians will have to pay.

  • monkey for sale

    Pat Condell puts it very well in this short video.

  • Treebrain

    Fascinating article Douglas Murray, especially in that it completely manages to evade the central points involved in the current conflict in Syria.

    Hezbollah are the clear winner because they are gaining further combat experience, may well obtain S-300 SAMs supplied by Russia that they can take back to Lebanon and look likely to be key players in a Shi’ite victory that will further strengthen their links with Iran.

    Aleppo will fall in the next few days as Hezbollah lead the Assad forces to a stunning victory!

    Lesson for Israel, do NOT underestimate your opponents!

    • Adam

      It’s also estimated that Hezbollah is losing 4-5 terrorists per day, and their position in Lebanon (and regard in the wider Arab world) has never been weaker.
      If Assad goes, they are finished.

      • Treebrain


        On what basis do you claim that Hezbollah have ‘never been weaker’?

        Their fighters are gaining invaluable experience in in combat in Syria.

        They fought the Israeli Defence Forces to a standstill in the Lebanon War of 2006 as the Winograd Commission reports made clear.

        The battle of Bint Jbeil was a humiliating defeat for Israeli military intelligence who had declared the town free of enemy forces and the conventional IDF forces as the reputation of the purported ‘elite’ Golani brigade was fatally damaged.

        The IDF never managed to recapture the town despite overwhelming numbers and vastly greater equipment.

        It is little wonder that Hezbollah fighters will led the assault that retakes Aleppo.

        • Drakken

          The only reason Israel had a hard time was they were to worried about PC rules of engagement. Wait until they take off the kid gloves and put on the mailed fist carrying a mace, that will be a whole different story.

          • Treebrain

            Oh, please spare us the old canard that the IDF is the most humane military in the world!

            Did you not know that Israel has, once more, just been condemned by the UN for human rights abuses, in this case for torturing children?

            As for the IDF, your excuse is the same used by the US military after Vietnam and the German Imperial military after WWI!

            • Drakken

              What’s the matter? You don’t like when the west uses the total war concept against Islamic savages because it hurts your precious feelings? War is a very nasty cruel business and if leftards like you have a case of the vapors over it, maybe you should leave the nasty business of war in more capable hands than your fretting about it.

              • Treebrain

                I do not need to worry about war, unlike yourself I have actually read the reports of the Winograd Commission and know in great detail the incompetence and negligence that lead to the IDF failure in the Lebanon war of 2006.

                Are you not aware of the Israeli defeat at the battle of Bint Jbeil?

                Face the facts, the IDF is very good at killing unarmed demonstrators and civilians but when confronted by others who shoot back has crumbled.

                Israel cannot do ANYTHING to stop Iran becoming a nuclear power in the next two years.

                Israeli diplomacy is an oxymoron, the country has lost Turkey as an ally, Egypt has gone, European nations vote against Israel now with regard to recognising Palestine, the UN has just condemned Israel for torturing Palestinian children, the BSD movement goes from strength to strength as the Stephen Hawking incident shows, and even ardent supporters of Israel like Barbra Streisand are now speaking out against a state that condones women being beaten, spat upon and forced into the seats at the back of the bus just as blacks once were in the US!

                As for your exhortation about ‘total war’, why does Israel not dare to try it against Iran before that country becomes a nuclear power?

                Because they are cowards or because they know it would fail?

                • Drakken

                  The reason Israel failed is because they had their hands tied behind their backs trying to fight the Islamic savages with Queensbury rules. The savages hide behind women and children and call themselves brave for holding up the IDF, when faced with force, the little savages run and hide. Time to take off the kid gloves and get back to the tried and true form of warfare called total war concept, and give the muslim savages everything they deserve.

                • Drakken

                  Underestimate the IDF at your own peril. IDF had their hands tied during that war, a mistake I hope they have learned. As for your pali friends, I am all out of any type of sympathy or empathy for a bunch of savages that teach their children it is a great thing to kill Jews, effem.

                • Treebrain

                  Nobody is underestimating the IDF, they just realise that their forte is shooting unarmed civilians!

                  Once confronted with people who are armed and fire back, they crumble.

                  WHY were the IDF, with all their tanks and helicopters and planes and missiles unable to recapture Bint Jbeil in 2006?

                  Time to face the facts Drakken, the IDF cannot mount an effective military strike against Iranian military facilities. Iran has called the bluff of Netanyahu and so he can huff and puff but has been outsmarted.

                  Obama will certainly not involve the US in any military action against Iran, and due to the stupidty of Israeli politicans, the alliance with Turkey has ended so Israeli planes are barred from Turkish air space so any attempted surprise attack will be seen well in advance and thus fail.

                  I remain puzzled why people like yourself cannot see the cumulative impact of poor strategic and tactical decisions whether with regard to the military o diplomacy and how that has cost Israel dear.

                  My analysis is hardly startling or new, I am merely stating the obvious, namely that the use of disproportionate force, diplomatic blunders and a failure to enforce the rule of law in Israel with regard to the ultra-orthodox and the settlers has deligitimised the state internally, lost vital allies like Egypt and Turkey and allowed Iran to become a nuclear power.

              • Treebrain


                You seem completely oblivious to the fact that the Israeli policy of using disproportionate force is actually counter-productive and is clearly failing!

                The murders of unarmed civilians onboard the Mavi Marmara cost Israel dear, Turkey is no longer an ally and now vetoes any Israeli involvement in NATO activities!

                The murders of Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall and other unarmed peaceful protesters is losing Israel vital support amongst allies and neutral states.

                Bombing a football stadium where Palestinian children were playing, killing and maiming several, does not help the image of Israel amongst the international community.

                Slowly but surely such events are having an effect, the BSD movement goes stronger and stronger (latest recruit Stephen Hawking), European nations and others upgrade the status of Palestinian diplomatic missions, the UN recognises Palestine, the noose is tightening and Israel suffers accordingly.

                Nobody supports Israeli attempts to prevent Iran becoming a nuclear power save for a few token gestures, Russia and China actively support Iran, and Syria is now the site of a proxy war that could well see jihadi and al-Qaeda affiliates secure a victory and obtain chemical WMD in a state that borders Israel.

                What WILL Israel do if chemical WMD are released in the Golan Heights?

                Your bitterness, rage and frustration are evident from your comments here and elsewhere but only serve to emphasise that my comments and others like them are far more realistic than your fantasies about Israeli might prevailing!

                • Drakken

                  Yeah, singing kumbaya and wishing the world was a better place is socialist folly and stupidity on steroids, the only way you deal with muslim jihad is by the mailed fist, period. They fire a rocket, you give them rolling arty barrages and MOABS, sooner or latert they run out of bodies to throw at you, and when jihadist hide behind women and children and cry and whine to the western press about how mean those Israelis are, I am all out of any type of sympathy or empathy for the savage that have brought it upon themselves, effem.

                  I am a huge fan of disaportionate force, because that is called warfare and you bloody peace now fanatics frankly speaking, deserve a little Darwins help just like that anti-western Israeli hater Rachel(st. pancake) Corrie who got exactly what she deserved. Any westerner who sides with and gives aid and comfort to those savages deserves the label enemy collaborator and deserves their fate.
                  Let me make this extremely clear to you, there will NEVER EVER be peace with the muslims in so called palliland period, because those poor peace loving jihadist savages want every Jew dead, so good luck with making peace with a people who never wanted it in the first place, as far as I am concerned, give gaza a Shermans March to the sea and a healthy taste of Carthage, it is the only language those muslim savages understand. We in the west are not at war with islam, but islam is at war with us.

                • Treebrain

                  You might be missing the point here?

                  My comments are not based on thoughts, feelings and opinions, but rather analysis, facts and cited sources.

                  My comments here and elsewhere focus on reality and how to deal with it, such as Iran becoming a nuclear power in the next two years.

                  You and others like you may not agree, and they may indulge themselves in a fantasy of a ‘military option’ but the reality is that Israel is impotent and cannot launch an effective military strike alone. The second fact to absorb is that Obama, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, will NEVER sanction a US attack on Iran.

                  Israel is currently losing allies, leaking international support and facing multiple threats from Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and others.

                  The policy of disproportionate response is not working.

                  The policy of Gaza Blockade HAS failed.

                  ‘Facts on the ground’ are not facts as the evacuation of the Gaza Strip made clear.

                  ‘Land for peace’ is the only option now available, but if it is not done soon, Palestine will opt for the ‘one state’ solution.

                  You cannot adopt the ostrich defence and ignore the above, but denial is not just a river in Egypt!

                • Drakken

                  How can I possibly put this as nicely as I can. There will NEVER EVER be peace between Israel and the muslims period! Show an inch of weakness to those Islamic savages and they take it as a sign of weakness and attack. Your facts, and so called thoughtful musings is complete leftist propaganda on steroids. As far as facts are concerned, there is no such thing as disaportionate response, there is only warfare, and your friends the palis deserve everything they get and more, effem. Your either side with western civilization(Israel) or you side with the Islamic savages, which is it? Choose wisely.
                  By the way, the only one in denial is you and you support of Islamic savagery.

                • Treebrain

                  How sad you are when you think that an idealistic young woman deserves to die under a bulldozer!

                  Even worse is that ‘Kate HA’ agrees with you?

                  Have you both lost all sense of humanity with your talk of ‘muslim savages’?

                • Drakken

                  That poor idealistic, American hating, jihadist loving progressive leftist got her a well deserved Darwin Award along with that other Islamic collaborator Hurndal, effem ! Your Islamic/leftist propaganda really is quite tiring, and really shows your true leftist colors.
                  I side with humanity/western civilization and am ardently against Islamic jihad period, there is no moral equivalence period! Not all cultures and religion is equal.
                  As for your Turkish friends who waged jihad and ended up with a meeting with the devil, good bloody riddance! Your lucky I wasn’t in charge of that op, I would have sunk that ship without putting personnel in harms way and saved those boys the trouble of dealing with those jihadist.
                  If your looking for sympathy for those muslim savages, I know where you can find it, it is in the dictionary between the words s*** and syphilis.

                • Kate HA

                  Ever heard of personal responsibility Treebrain? That “idealistic young woman” simply paid the price people like you encourage uninformed and ‘unformed’ youth to pay. YOU and your ilk bear full responsibility for that death. No surprise it is on a par with those you so avidly support and their custom of placing women and children as ‘shields’.

                  I have spent a long career urging my students to INFORM themselves on every aspect of every argument. We can never know all there is to know BUT we can at least attempt to glean factual information: historical, anthropological, cultural, ideological and psychological, from both sides of any divide.

                  I have studied Islam – history, internal divisions, religious dogma and overt totalitarian ideology; I have observed the colonisation and transformation of of huge swathes of western Europe – particularly England. I am not English, not Jewish, just British and I fervently object – intellectually, politically, pragmatically and emotionally.

                  My response here is only to repudiate your slur. I have no interest in SWP propaganda and so find your postings immature, repetitive, irrational, factually duplicitous and unworthy of mature consideration. Ergo I will not respond to any further comments referencing or addressed to me.

                • Treebrain

                  Kate HA,

                  Rachel Corrie was murdered by the IDF, just like Tom Hurndall and the unarmed Turkish civilians on the Mavi Marmara.

                  Nothing new with that, as a teacher I am sure that you are aware of a long, long tradition of the murder of unarmed civilians who try to bring peace, you know people like Jacob Israel de Haan, Count Folke Bernadotte and Yitzhak Rabin?

                  There is no slur in any of my comments, they are facts and it is known who carried out these murders, Haganah, the Stern Gang, Lehi, the IDF and Zionist, right-wing fanatics steeped in this bloody tradition.

                  You may well not wish to respond further to such comments, a very common reaction from those bested in debate, but however unpleasant and inconvenient for you, these truths cannot be ignored!

  • ProffessorPlum

    “Hezbollah is in fact not the ‘Army of God’ but rather the ‘Army of Satan.’”

    And why might that be?

    • Plum_is_an_idiot

      If you don’t know, Plum, its not worth explaining to you?

      • ProffessorPlum

        “its not worth explaining to you?”


        • Plum_is_an_idiot


          • ProffessorPlum


            Because you well know that Hezbollah is a resistance group there to protect Southern Lebanon from Israeli aggression.

            • curious

              You are a sad cretin.

            • J Simson

              Not quite true. That could be true of Amal which Hezbollah split of from.

              Hezbollah is an Iranian proxy funded and armed by Iran. They do not have Lebanon’s interest at heart.

              The goal of Nasrallah (look up the video on MEMRI) is a global Shiite Caliphate headed by Iran.

              As previously said if you support that then start learning what rights you will have a dhimmi.

            • Drakken

              Well I don’t see you joining your friendly jihadist? Why is that?

            • Drakken

              Hezbollah are a bunch of bloody savages, if you support and defend them you are as bad as they are.

              • ProffessorPlum

                “Hezbollah are a bunch of bloody savages,”

                Evidence to support that statement would be useful, unless your happy to appear an emotional liddle nitwit

                • Drakken

                  Try looking at what happened on Oct 23, 1983. The little savages missed me by 2 minutes. I look forward to seeing you join your jihadist friends.

    • J Simson

      Look at the flag of Hezbollah.

      A gun in clenched fist with world as a backdrop.

      Their goal is global domination of a shiite Caliphate. Start learning your rights as a Dhimmi if this is what you support.

  • Roy

    These are the guys Cameron and Obama find admirable friends; advising others to rise to the occasion and fight for their cause. For many of the Sheikh’s friends in the UK, it is they who would like to slaughter the very men who would be placing their lives on the line to interfere in this debacle that is Syria. The Sheikh, the Grand Mufti, and all the jihads on earth are not worth the loss of one single Britisher.

  • Ingvar

    “If Sunni extremists of an al-Qaeda bent wish to fight to the death with Hezbollah, then who are we to stand in their way?”

    Apart from the children of Prophet of various colours there are plenty of Christians and secular Syrians who suffer death and atrocities every day of the Arab winter… Don’t they need our protection?

  • Colin

    “every Muslim trained to fight and capable of doing that [must] make himself available’ for Jihad in Syria against Bashar al-Assad and Hezbollah.”

    Brilliant idea! All that’s needed once that happens is a couple of salvo’s of UGM-133 D 5’s. With prevailing winds; fallout in our neck of the woods should be kept to a minimum.

  • Curnonsky

    As Napoleon said: “Never interfere with the enemy when he is in the process of destroying himself”

    • Daniel Maris

      Hmmm…the only problem with that theory is that one or other is likely to win and take over the resources of the other and emerge stronger. Either way we could end up with a new Caliphate.

      • Fergus Pickering

        Well, either side hasn’t won for 1500 years so why is now so very different?

        • Daniel Maris

          Yes, but there was a Caliphate for 1300 plus years. The Sunnis won essenitally. The Shias were kept down. I think if there was a full blown religious war now, the Sunnis would probably win again. They have the population and the resources to win.

  • global city

    Isn’t Armageddon round there? Perhaps they could all go there and knock the bejezus out of each other, when the IDF could mop up those who survive?

    • AlfTupperDarlin

      Not sure the Israelis would be too keen on that. Megiddo (as it is called) is in the north of Israel about 20 miles south east of Haifa.

      • global city

        That was the idea behind my cunning plan. Tell the Jihadis that when they have finished off the Islamic apostates they could do in the Jews…. but……….!

  • Mark Gullick

    I’m confused. Which is the People’s Front of Judaea and which is the Judaean People’s Front?

    • Plum_is_an_idiot

      Your first posting? What was your previous name?

      • Mark Gullick

        My previous name? Oh, I see. No, that is my name. Do you mean in a previous life or something? I find commenters who use hilarious nicknames to be a little, well, shonky, as our Australian coisins might say.

  • monkey for sale

    The lie that “Islam is a religion of peace” should be challenged each and every time it’s said until this falsehood is never said again .

    • Austin Barry

      Our Islamo-terrified politicians will continue to trot out the ‘Religion of Peace’ misnomer whenever evidence of the bloodsoaked contrary appears on our streets.

      • Daniel Maris

        Yes in public…but behind the scenes they operate on real world principles like most of us here.

      • ProffessorPlum

        “Our Islamo-terrified politicians ”

        I suppose it must have been the killing of Lord Moyne and Count Bernadotte, that instilled that fear; not to mention the letter bomb attacks or the killing of British soldiers.

        • Plum_is_an_idiot

          Good morning Plum. It doesn’t take you long to lead this blog in your personal direction, anti Israel, although this is not the subject of the blog. Of course, these two events in 1944 and 1948 are perfectly relevant to jihad.
          Go peddle your anti-Semitism elsewhere.

          • ganef_returns

            I agree with you. That’s Plum is an idiot, not the illiterate professor.

          • ProffessorPlum

            “although this is not the subject of the blog. ”

            ‘Terrified politicians’ was the subject of Austin Barry’s posts. I wondered what it was exactly that had terrified them.

            For example was it the killing of Lord Moyne and Count Bernadotte, that instilled that fear; not to mention the letter bomb attacks or the killing of British soldiers?


            • Plum_is_an_idiot

              The subject matter was jihad. Austin Barry found relevance in introducing the political side of jihad. You just introduce anti-Semitism. You are not worth any further discussion. So wait for your muezzin.

              • ProffessorPlum

                “The subject matter was jihad.”

                I’ll repeat it for you as you seem rather thick: The sublect of Austin Barry’s post was ‘Terrified politicians’

                I wondered what it was exactly that had terrified them.

                For example was it the killing of Lord Moyne and Count Bernadotte, that instilled that fear; not to mention the letter bomb attacks or the killing of British soldiers?


                Was it perhaps the zionist attempt to assassinate Truman.

                What event has terrified our politicians?

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “I’ll repeat it for you as you seem rather thick”
                  What a choice statement coming from you. Perhaps you should look at all the positive votes for people responding to you compared to all the negatives you receive.
                  But as you seem intent on returning to the past (1940s) let me comment on Austin Barry’s posting. It is not just politicians, it is all of us that are worried, every day, about the next Islamic terrorist attack. Two days ago Israel was attacked by a rocket fired from Gaza at Ashdod. I suppose that if Israel responds, it will be their fault in your stupid brain.
                  “our politicians”, you ask. How about Woolwich?
                  And might I remind you that world hero Nelson Mandela was a terrorist, no better than the Stern gang as he tried to rescue his people from the white minority in South Africa.
                  So grow up Plum and get a life outside researching anti-Semitic websites. And read Adam’s response to you below. I have seen those gallows in Acre.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “And might I remind you that world hero Nelson Mandela was a terrorist,”

                  Might I remind you, that Mandela was fighting to free his country from colonialists. And that Israelis are colonizers.

                  Trying to justify a racist apartheid state on the back of Mandela is very inginious,but quite ridiculous.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “Might I remind you, that Mandela was fighting to free his country from colonialists”

                  As were the British in the mandate. And by Israelis, I think you mean Jews. So try the New Testament for starters. How many Muslims then?

                  “how much Palestinian land has been stolen?”
                  In Gaza, zilch. On the west bank, all of it. It belonged to (trans)Jordan for many years. 2,000 years ago it was called Judea and Samaria. Now there’s a clue in those names.

                • David Lindsay

                  From 1920 to 1948, Palestine existed as a country on the map. It existed under the British Crown as a Commonwealth country with the Union Flag in the corner of its own.

                  And therefore, despite the craven decision not to include the Arms of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, it existed as a country under the Cross as surely as during the Frankish period.

                  It did so until it was bombed out of existence by the founders of modern terrorism. Those did not relent, but if anything the very reverse, while the British Commonwealth was fighting the Third Reich.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “As were the British in the mandate. ”

                  The British did not colanize Palestine. At great expense to the British taxpayer they provide protection to the jewish colonists. Once the zionists had a strong enough army the British pulled out. Interestingly, India was made to pay for protection against the japanese by the British government, whereas, the zionists, who were not supported by British jewery, got protection for free.

                  Anyway your analogy with Mandela is a good one, and must mean that secretly you believe the Palestinians have a right to resist the occupation.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  And this is the man who criticises the spelling and grammar of others.

                • ganef_returns

                  “you wouldn’t need much more than a couple of hands to count the casualties”

                  One is one too many. As a Muslim, you clearly measure success as the number of people killed by a terrorist attack.

                  You really are sick.

                • J Simson

                  Arabs == from Arabia

                  Jews = from Judea and Samaria

                  Why are you so supportive of Islamic imperialism at the expense of Jewish natives?

                  Would you support the Arab occupation of Andalusia as well?

                • David Lindsay

                  The Latin Catholics and the Syrian Catholics, the Melkites
                  and the Maronites, who with the Arab Orthodox and the ancestrally Orthodox Palestinian Anglicans (it’s a long story) founded Arab nationalism in general and the whole concept of Filastin in particular.

                  They provided almost the latter’s entire leadership inside the Green Line until 1973, despite the overwhelming Sunni Muslim
                  majority among Israeli Arabs, as among Palestinians generally.

                  The former Balad MK Azmi Bishara, who was driven into exile as recently as 2007 because of the bombardment of Lebanon, was a Catholic from Nazareth, where, in an echo of the roots of the Christian Coalition and the Moral Majority, he was educated by the Southern Baptist Mission.

                  Oh, yes. American Protestant missionary activity has had an important impact. Its universities, untainted by association with British or French colonialism, nurtured generations of Arab nationalist leaders, Muslim as well as Christian.

                  As did those with the most interest in defining the local and putatively national identity as Arab rather than Islamic, namely the ancient indigenous Christians. That was, and it very largely
                  still is, Arab nationalism: the fruitful encounter between indigenous Catholicism and Orthodoxy on the one hand, and the educational opportunities opened up by American “mainline” Protestants on the other.

                  The people whom the Bible clearly describes the Israelites as having conquered but never exterminated are the people who founded Jerusalem. They became Christian when the Roman Empire did, those who had not already done so by then.

                  They adopted Arabic, not much of a change from what they had already been speaking, during an Islamic Conquest which occurred exactly when the Anglo-Saxons were conquering another semi-abandoned former Roman province, so that Palestine and England are exactly as old as each other. Twins, really. They even have the same Patron Saint.

                  When the Muslims conquered Jerusalem, it was an entirely Christian city, and had been for several centuries. Add together the post-Constantinian Roman, the Byzantine, the Crusader and the British periods, and Christian sovereignty is far and away the Holy Land’s historical norm.

                  Remember all of that when you hear some ludicrous myth of the indigeneity to that Land of Russians who refuse to eat
                  kosher food and who insist on taking their Israeli Defence Force oaths on the New Testament alone, of Russian Nazis, of East Africans who have invented a religion based on the Old Testament brought by Christian missionaries, of Peruvian Indians “converted to Judaism” and then put onthe plane in a single and remunerated action, of absolutely anyone at all.

                  Even the Pashtun, who are now classified as a Lost Tribe with a view to airlifting them to Israel in future, since at least they are not Arabs. They are Sunni Muslims, of course. But that is not the same thing. Not the same thing at all.

                • Treebrain

                  Er, the Jews are not necessarily natives or do you not know what the Ashkenazi are?

                • ganef_returns

                  Don’t expect an answer from Plum. He got banned from the Daily Telegraph so that’s why he’s here.

                • Drakken

                  I could care less how many palis got whacked, because if the little savages quit sending rockets into Israel they would be alive. Effem! I will let you in on a little secret, the palis and muslims in general will never ever give Israel peace unless it is peace of the grave, so Israel, give them Carthage as the savages deserve.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “if the little savages quit sending rockets into Israel they would be alive.”

                  Just a few questions:

                  1: Are you saying that every dead Palestinian died because they sent a rocket into Israel?

                  2: What came first the occupation or the rockets?

                  3: And, considering that the moslems gave jews shelter from from christian persecuition and considering your hatred for Islam, how much do you hate christanity?

                • ganef_returns

                  “What came first the occupation or the rockets?”
                  Israel ceased to occupy Gaza in 2005. Since then Hamas and its friends have fired over 11,000 rockets and shells every single one at non-military targets; men, women and children.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Israel ceased to occupy Gaza in 2005

                  And turned Gaza into the world’s largest concentration camp, and expanded settlements in the West Bank.

                  The Palestinians have a right to resist the occupation and the blockade.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot


                  Judging by the number or arms and large German cars coming into Gaza, it is hardly blockaded. Use your expertise with Google to discover how many truckloads of food, medicines and building materials pass through, daily, from Israel to Gaza. And Gaza exports through the same border goods for the whole world.

                  But then, of course, you don’t want to comment on these matters because you are an idiot – and an awful lot of people agreed with me.

                  You told Drakken above that Gaza was occupied and ganef advised otherwise so you moved the goalposts with another false statement.

                • Drakken

                  Hello, planet earth to plum crazy!

                • Treebrain

                  The occupation.

                  It is called cause and effect, ganef!

                  Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, this event led to the creation of Hezbollah.

                  Actions have consequences, as Israel is learning to its cost!

                • ganef_returns

                  I returned from England today to find this idiotic posting. In case you had not noticed, the Lebanon is to the north of Israel, Gaza somewhat to the south. I have not seen any reports of Hezbollah operating in Gaza. Hezbollah hardly ever fires rockets at Israel. So perhaps you might explain your response to my posting?

                • Treebrain

                  Clearly you are living proof that travel does not always broaden the mind, sometimes it merely reinforces the prejudices!

                • ganef_returns

                  Clearly you are wasting space here and my time.

                • Treebrain

                  Not at all, I managed to get Drakken to reveal his true colours and endorse ethnic cleansing and genocide so at least we all know hat he is really like.

                  If you feel that participating in these discussions is a waste of time, then do something more productive?

                • independent_voice1

                  You have only to look at the number of negatives that you get and compare them to the number of positives that others get, responding to you, to realise that it is you who ought to do something more productive.

                  Your response to ganef_returns when he wrote about Gaza and you responded with words about Lebanon beggars belief. You simply drone on about matters you wish to introduce but have no intention to enter into a dialogue about a subject introduced by another person. Ganef discussed Gaza post 2005, you responded with Lebanon in 1982. Productive? I think not.

                • ganef_returns

                  I totally agree with you. Acornbrain is totally blinkered to his viewpoint and does not discuss anything.

                • Treebrain

                  Er, except I HAVE discussed things in a calm, rational manner citing sources and avoiding personal abuse, have I not?

                • ganef_returns

                  ” I HAVE discussed things in a calm, rational manner”

                  No you have NOT. In response to a posting on Gaza post-2005, your response concerned the Lebanon in 1982.

                  Your response above shows your total lack of understanding about Israel based on your personal ignorance of my country. So let me “discuss” your comments.

                  1. Spitting on Christian clerics. This has to be a rare occurrence by the intolerant minority far-out haredi and they are more likely to spit at me as a secular Jew. Recently, more than 100 mosques were attacked in England by a small crackpot minority. May I assume, then, that all white English are liable to do the same?

                  2. Segregation on public transport is illegal. A haredi (that same minority) trying to enforce segregation would be told, by the driver, to get off the bus. But there are a small number of private buses, owned and run by the haredi that do enforce such rules and that is their right as it would be in England. An interesting ruling on this segregation was made by the judicial system last month on segregation of men and women at funerals, deemed totally illegal.

                  3. It is NOT the wailing wall, nobody has called it that for 20-30 years. It is the western wall or, more normally, the kotel. Nowhere have you seen that women have been barred from praying there. The small “problem” was that a group of women were arrested for praying there in apparel deemed in the book of Exodus for men. You omit that they were released almost immediately, without charge, as they broke no laws, and they still do the same on the first day of the month, without harassment. The “harassers” would be arrested.

                  I suggest you stop misinterpreting the news and twisting it to an anti_Israel, anti-Jewish agenda. I notice from the television that you see only men praying in mosques. So go write something about that next time.

                • independent_voice1

                  How patronising can you get? You clearly have never visited Israel but consider yourself expert enough to make these comments that are completely wide of the mark.

                  “these events were indeed news to some here”

                  Probably because they are completely untrue or grossly exaggerated. Next time check your facts BEFORE you post.

                • hasbara

                  Ganef could have added that you are an idiot. So I will.

                • Treebrain

                  Of course you would hasbara, because have been bested by me in the discussion, you are now reduced to bullying, trolling and personal abuse?

                  If you cannot attack the argument, attack the man?

                  What is SO fascinating is that so many people make the effort to make comments about me with regard filled with personal abuse.

                  Even more telling about those who me is that NONE have them have condemned Drakken when he advocated ethnic cleansing and genocide.

                  Now why would that be?

                • Drakken

                  What’s the matter hadji, you afraid that you spewing Islamic/leftist propaganda is going to have dire consequences for you?

                • ganef_returns

                  For your information, treebrain:
                  Last week the Catholic Herald reported that five Church Schools (“two Catholic and three Christian”) are under threat in Gaza because of the ruling party Hamas’s intention to extend their Muslim Brotherhood-inspired version of Islam throughout their fiefdom. Their edict, which forbids the education of boys and girls together, will mean that the schools must close down because of lack of space and staff. That most of the students are Muslim matters not at all. What’s important is the segregation of male and female as far as possible.

                  For some, this will be the first chill wind signalling what a Palestinian state dominated by Islamists will mean for Palestinian Christians. But such folk have missed warning signs going back many years.

                  In 2005, the annual report on human rights abuses around the world produced by the US State Department recorded abuse of Palestinian Christians by individuals and by Palestinian institutions, such as government and the police. The report stated:

                  The PA judiciary failed to adjudicate numerous cases of seizures of Christian-owned land in the Bethlehem area by criminal gangs. There were credible reports that PA security forces and judicial officials colluded with gang members to extort property illegally from Christians. Several attacks against Christians in Bethlehem went unaddressed by the PA, but authorities investigated attacks against Muslims in the same area.
                  About this time a Roman Catholic priest in Ramallah bewailed the fact that in his experience Muslim Palestinians did not want Christians living among them.

                  Then there are the attacks on Christians and their property by fellow Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza, few of which were reported by Western media outlets. Bible Society official Rami Ayyad was kidnapped and murdered by Jihadists in Gaza. The YMCA in the West Bank town of Qalqilya was torched, as were church schools in Gaza.

                  The steady trickle of information about the harassment and persecution of Palestinian Christians by other Palestinians has increasingly come from Palestinians themselves, notably from the East Jerusalem-based Israeli-Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh. Abu Toameh risks his life to report various aspects of the underbelly of life under the Palestinian Authority. He reports on corruption within the PA leadership, the effects of chaotic and wasteful governance, and the way in which Palestinian leaders talk peace for eager Western ears whilst inciting their citizens (in Arabic) to believe that their Jewish neighbour can be eliminated.

                  Khaled Abu Toameh has covered the treatment experienced by Palestinian Christians in both the West Bank and Gaza extensively. He insists that the haemorrhage of Christians from the Holy Land is not due, as many would have us believe, to the Israeli ‘occupation’, but to their increasing marginalisation at the hands of neighbours who use their power to disadvantage Christians.

                • Treebrain

                  Thank you for proving my point ganef!

                  Anyone interested in the welfare of Christians in Syria would support the secular Assad regime, not the fundamentalists, jihadi and al-Qaeda associates of the Syrian rebels.

                  The best outcome for Syrian Christians would be for Hezbollah to lead the Syrian assault on the rebels and obtain a fast and decisive victory!

                  This will end the revolt, ensure an Assad victory and mean that Christians continue to be free to worship in safety as they do now.

                • ganef_returns

                  If you had bothered to read the posting you would have noticed that it was not about Syrian but about Israeli Muslims. Not much point discussing anything with you, then.

                • Treebrain

                  This is not a popularity contest. If you look at my Disqus profile you will see how many ‘Likes’ I have received.

                  If you cannot understand the concept of ’cause and effect’ as in the case of both Gaza and Lebanon, that says far more about you and your ability to comprehend the discussion, does it not?

                • ganef_returns

                  “If you look at my Disqus profile you will see how many ‘Likes’ I have received.”

                  Your profile does not record dislikes but this blog does.

                • Drakken

                  Yeah you have more dislikes than likes, well goody for you hadji, you islamaniacs will continue to claim the high moral ground an say that you are winning, when we haven’t begun to fight, yet.

                • Treebrain

                  Wrong, the Lebanon War of 2006 is over, Israel lost.

                  Operation Cast Lead is over, Israel did not find Gilad Shalit or stop the rockets.

                  The Mavi Marmara murders are over, Israel lost Turkey as an ally.

                  The war in Afghanistan is over, the Taliban have won.

                  Assad is defeating the Syrian rebels.

                  There will be no war with Iran as it becomes a nuclear power.

                  Where is this mythical combat that you speak of?

                • Drakken

                  You leftys don’t want discussion, you want Israel and the west to bow to islam, so sorry if it hurts your poor precious sensibilities but there are millions of us that just won’t go quietly into the night because you say so.

                • Treebrain

                  Discussion is exactly what is going on but it is neither left-wing or right-wing.

                  Because discussion is taking place, Iran is free to continue to develop as a nuclear power.

                  Because discussion is taking place, the western powers will not arm the Syrian rebels, allowing Hezbollah to led the Assad forces in defeating the rebels.

                  Because discussion is taking place in Egypt, Egypt no long maintains a blockade of Gaza.

                  Because discussion is taking place, the UN and other supra-national organisations are increasingly recognising Palestine.

                  Because discussion is taking place, the BSD movement grows stronger, as the recent refusal of Stephen Hawking to visit makes clear.

                  Surely discussion is always better than war?

                • ganef_returns

                  “Because discussion is taking place in Egypt, Egypt no long maintains a blockade of Gaza.”
                  So you admit that the people of Gaza DO have free movement of goods and themselves.

                • Drakken

                  Discussing anything with you muzzy supporters has come and gone, war is on the horizon and you will have brought it upon yourselves.

                • Treebrain

                  Except there is not going to be a war Drakken.

                  The war going on in Syria will end with a victory for the Assad regime.

                  Iran will become a nuclear power without any ‘military option’ being exercised because neither Israel or the US will dare attack Iran.

                  You may not like my statements but remember them as events unfold and prove me to be correct in my analysis and my conclusions.

                  Denial is no substitute for policy, so get real and start factoring in how to deal with a Iran as a nuclear power.

                • Drakken

                  As long as we don’t interfere and let the savages kill each other to their little jihadist content, I am happy to sit back with a good bourbon and good Cuban cigar and watch the show, effem!
                  Your statements are nothing but a false narrative and complete utter bulls*** and you bloody well know it, and the only folks buying your nonsense is fellow leftards. Iran sooner or later will be dealt with military precision, it is inevitable so the only one in denial is you and others of your leftist ilk.

                • Treebrain

                  While you are enjoying a cigar and a bourbon, Iran is becoming a nuclear power!

                  Feel free to show how my narrative is false, but we both know you can’t.

                  The Winograd Commission reports on the failures of the IDF are public knowledge. Have you read them?

                  “The report categorised the 2nd Lebanon war as a serious missed opportunity. The war had ended without clear military victory, a much smaller para-military organization successfully resisted against a much larger force which had complete air superiority among other technological advantages. Lebanese rockets aimed at Israel’s civilian population continued throughout the war which Israel could not effectively stop. Life in the affected regions of Israel was seriously disrupted, with many civilians either leaving their homes temporarily or spending time in shelters. When Israel initiated a large scale ground offensive the offensive did not result in military gains and was not completed.”

                  Deny that!

                • Drakken

                  Well that Winograd report absolutely failed to mention what the reason was that the IDF got bogged down, there is a US study(classified) that simple states that the IDF were too afraid of collateral damage and its image in the press.
                  Your friends in Iran are going to find out that making nukes is going to be very bad for their health and the madhi isn’t going to be climbing out of the well anytime soon.

                • Treebrain

                  Drakken, that is not correct and you know it, or at least you would if you actually read the Winograd commission reports.

                  You are simply repeating the old canard used by the German military after defeat in WW1 and the US military after Vietnam!

                  Be prepared to hear exactly the same when the US ‘cut and run’ in Afghanistan after their defeat by the Taliban. (Actually, when you think about it, how many campaigns HAVE the US won since 1945, Grenada and Iraq are the only two, everywhere else they have set foot they have been vanquished?)

                  As for the IDF, you simply refuse to accept the evidence for the reasons of the IDF defeat even though the Israeli’s themselves have publicly stated them in the sources I cited.

                  Further proof is provided by the Israeli reservists protests in Israel about the conduct of the IDF before, during and after the defeat in the Lebanon War of 2006, or are you not aware of these protests?

                  It was the protests by those who served, along with the parents of those who died, that led to the establishment of the Winograd Commission in the first place!

                  None of them shared your view that it was restraint that caused the defeat of the IDF but rather, as the report points out:

                  – Some of the troubling findings revealed that there were serious failings and shortcomings in the decision-making processes at both the political and military levels, in preparedness, decision-making and performance in the IDF, particularly the army, in strategic thinking and planning, in both the political and the military echelons, and in the defence of the civilian population and in coping with rockets.

                  – The decision to react immediately to the kidnapping limited Israel’s range of options to only two, a stand-off war or an invasion. Israel went to war before it had decided which option to use and military and political echelons failed to have a serious discussion of the options or decide between them.

                  – Even so, until the first week of August, Israel was unprepared to launch a large-scale ground operation.

                  The once heroic IDF has been softened and corrupted by decades of use as ‘prison guard service’ and the results were made clear in Lebanon in 2006!

                  Quite simply, it is no longer an effective military service due to the reasons stated.

                • ganef_returns

                  Dutch-Israeli military historian and author Martin van Creveld criticised some of Winograd’s findings. Israel’s war against Hezbollah was indeed “marked by a long series of failures” but he criticised the Winograd Commission for its failure to take into account the substantial achievements of the war. He argued that Hezbollah “had the fight knocked out of it,” lost hundreds of its members and that the organization was “thrown out of South Lebanon,” replaced by “a fairly robust United Nations peacekeeping force.” He also stressed that as a result of the war, Israel is experiencing a level of calm on the Lebanon border not seen in over four decades.

                  The war had significant diplomatic achievements. SC resolution 1701, and the fact it was adopted unanimously, was an achievement for Israel, despite an absence of preparatory staff work and discussions. The staff work done in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs concerning the adoption of a favourable resolution in the Security Council was, in the main, quick, systematic and efficient.

                  You see you are not the only one who can use Google and quote it selectively. I also note that when you are caught out, as I did yesterday, you simply do not reply. And, look, I have not attacked you personally, your usual response to others as well as myself.

                • Treebrain


                  As you well know from previous discussions, I always encourage everyone to use a search engine to validate the sources and references I cite.

                  I did not quote ‘selectively’, I quoted only what was relevant to the point I was making, quite a different thing.

                  As for your comment, you want to have your cake and eat it too!

                  You want to disparage the negative aspects of the Winograd Commission reports and yet at the same time cherry pick other comments that support your case?

                  No matter, the ultimate benefit of discussion such as this is that some people might actually read the Winograd Commission reports and then put the comments of the likes of Drakken in context.

                  It does nobody good, least of all the state of Israel, to ignore the facts and peddle the old canard that only the self-restraint of the IDF caused the failure of Israel in the Lebanon War of 2006.

                  To their credit, even Hezbollah acknowledged the findings of the Winograd Commission reports, and that they were made public.

                  Puerile and facile assertions of IDF superiority violate the very first rule of war ‘Do not underestimate the enemy’!

                  As we have discussed many times, Israel is a small and very, very vulnerable country surrounded by potentially hostile neighbours. Arrogant assertions of innate Israeli superiority are dangerous as they cause complacency and distract from the eternal vigilance Israel must maintain in order merely to survive.

                  Despite our many, many differences we both share a desire to see the state of Israel and its people not only survive but prosper and live in peace.

                • Drakken

                  That Winograd report you love to site as your authoritative source is ridden with PC garbage and completely wrong conclusions. It did get something right though, very convoluted command and control. The US(DOD classified) that I read and I know for a fact that you don’t have a clearance to do so, notes that the IDF were ordered like the US mil in Afghanistan, to avoid collateral damage at all costs, and that insane policy always leads to far more casualties on our side and only emboldens the enemy.

                  Every western army in the world has the technological edge to defeat any enemy on the planet, what now is lacking, is the will to do what is necessary to defeat our enemies. If you think that the arabs will quit attacking Israel if Israel just gives everything they want, you are clearly utterly deluded. Show weakness to the muslim arabs and they will attack you, as they have proved many times over the past. There will never ever be peace in Israel because the muslim arabs want every Jew dead, it is that bloody simple, the Israelis have the temerity and the gall to disagree.
                  As for your Persian friends, they will continue to push the envelope until the west says enough is enough and sends them to meet their 72 virgins.

                • Treebrain

                  Oh, so you get to read DOD classified documents, do you, pull the other one!

                  “Every western army in the world has the technological edge to defeat any enemy on the planet…”

                  Really, so how do you explain Vietnam, the defeat of Soviet Russia in Afghanistan or the imminent Taliban victory in Afghanistan?

                  Israel was well beaten in the Lebanon War of 2006 just as it was beaten and expelled from Lebanon in 1985.

                  Israel is impotent with regard to Iran as it does not have the technology, logistics or experience to launch an effective military attack against the Iranian nuclear facilities.

                  Due to diplomatic blunders and the Mavi Marmara murders, Turkey is no longer an ally and Turkish air space is blocked to Israeli aircraft.

                  Obama will do nothing to assist Israel to attack Iran, and despite all the bluster of Netanyahu about crossing a red line, Iran has just ignored him and continued to develop its nuclear power industry. His bluff has been called.

                  The recent willingness of Russia to supply S-300 SAMs to the region has caused consternation amongst the IDF because it means Israel no longer has the ability to move freely in the air space of its neighbours.

                  You may not like the findings of the Winograd commission but denial is not enough to make them wrong.

                  It is the deep-seated negligence and incompetence at the heart of the IDF that led to the defeat of Israel by a smaller, less well-equipped force despite the overwhelming air power and technology of the IDF.

                  Your delusions and fantasies about the military power of Israel, the merits of ethnic cleansing and genocide show just how desperate you are, clutching at straws rather than facing reality.

                  I look forward to discussing matters next year when Iran is a nuclear power and all your talk of a ‘military option’ is exposed for the delusion that it is!

                • Drakken

                  Nice leftist Islamic arrogant worldview that you look through.
                  Israel won in 85 by pushing the PLO completely out of Lebanon, so epic fail there.
                  Russian was winning in asscrackistan until we got involved by giving the savages missiles and aid. Again you lost the plot there.
                  Winnograd report didn’t tell you everything and your just too much of a leftist to realize it.
                  I trust a DOD report over what you have completely missed the point on, again nice try.
                  You keep thinking what Israel does in defence of its country is genocide and ethnic cleansing, when it is very clear they do anything but. Frankly speaking, Israel is way to nice to the savages.
                  The West will have no choice but to act if Iran gets close to a nuke weapon, because the bloody savages will use it if they get one, so action one way or another is coming.
                  The fact that you are a leftist sympathizer to Islamic causes really does tell the rest of us where your loyalties lie.

                • Treebrain


                  “Israel won in 85 by pushing the PLO completely out of Lebanon, so epic fail there.”

                  Not at all, the invasion of 1982 led to the creation of Hezbollah, Israel replaced the weak and ineffective PLO with a tough, tenacious new enemy that has already done far more damage than the PLO ever did!

                  A perfect example of ‘disproportionate force’ being employed by Israel and it blew up in their face.

                  The reputation of Israel was blackened by involvement in the Sabra and Chatila massacres.

                  The military reputation of the IDF suffered when Lebanese forces drove them out of the country!

                  The Winograd Commission reports told everyone a great deal about the incompetence and negligence of the Israeli political and military leadership while the battle of Bint Jbeil showed just how the IDF could be beaten.

                  Your naive faith in the DOD seems to hide the fact that the US military is quite useless and is getting beaten in Afghanistan just as it was in Vietnam!

                  Iran will get nuclear power in the next year just as Assad will get S-3000 SAMs and there is nothing the US or Israel can do to stop either.

                  Face reality and deal with it, denial is not a policy!

                • Drakken

                  The only one running their islamist mouth is you, nobody is buying what you are selling, so give it up hadji. Can’t wait until Iran gets what is coming to them in spades. The propaganda is getting rather tiresome.

                • Treebrain

                  Nobody is buying anything, because I am not selling!

                  What I am doing is providing balanced debate, logic, verifiable sources and a point of view different from your own.

                  Drakken, you are an absolute gift because your abuse, histrionic outbursts and the like provide a platform for people like me to make a certain position clear, make a reasoned argument and support such a position with real facts.

                  For far, far, too long people like you have dominated the debate, but those days are over.

                  Now you will be challenged, corrected and proven to be wrong.

                  Logic, reality and reason will expose your falsehoods, mock your abuse and enable others to learn about the real situation!

                  Good luck in the future, but you already know that you have met your match!

                • Drakken

                  It is exactly your lack of logic, common sense and completely missing a point, and the constant Islamic propaganda is the reason why you deserve the ridicule reaped upon you. You haven’t proven anything other than ,I feel therefore I am ,as your policy positions and complete utter leftist garbage. I do give you credit for trying, but your failing your western audience by miles. That is why us westerners will defeat you muslim savages in the end.

                • Treebrain

                  I am not providing propaganda, am I?

                  People like you have been talking about Iran since 1979 and yet STILL the regime is in place, Operation Eagle Claw failed, and Iran is on the verge of becoming a nuclear power!

                  Just like Netanyahu, you are oh, so willing to brag and bluster, but Iran has called your bluff, so where are you left now?

                • Drakken

                  You muslims will push us in the West until we tire of your jihadist games, then it is all over for you Islamic savages.

                • Drakken

                  War decides all things in the end, and you muslims will have brought our collective wrath upon you, because you thought you get get away with it because of our lack of resolve and have continued to push, well those days are coming to an end.

                • Treebrain


                  In your rage and fury and venting you have forgotten that I am not a Muslim, or even left-wing!

                  War is indeed a great decider, which is why the defeat of Israel in the Lebanon War of 2006 is so important, just like Vietnam and the imminent Taliban victory in Afghanistan.

                  The world remembers the US defeats in Beirut and Mogadishu too!

                • Drakken

                  What you call ethnic cleansing and so called genocide is warfare, too bloody bad your going to get a taste of it soon enough.

                • Treebrain

                  No, genocide is not the same thing as warfare as the Armenian massacres, the Holodomor and the Holocaust make clear.

                  None of the states that perpetrated these atrocities was at war with the victims, it was a case of a state attacking its own citizens or citizens of neighbouring states, the victims were not soldiers.

                  Your knowledge and understanding of history is pitiful.

                • Drakken

                  My understanding of history is by far better than your wishful peace at any price nonsense.

                • Treebrain


                  Your knowledge of history has been found wanting time and time again.

                  You did not even know about the Winograd Commission reports until I told you about them!

                  I had to explain to you how Israeli actions created Hezbollah.

                  You fantasize about access to confidential DOD reports but have never, ever cited a single source to support your statements.

                  You indulge in silly and childish personal abuse while advocating ethnic cleansing and genocide!

                • Drakken

                  You can’t cite them because of the classification dumbaz, but a muzzy like you soon enough will realize our western wrath. You try to use our tolerance and openness as a bludgeon against us, it will be your undoing. You muzzys and leftist traitors continue to kick the Dragon in the belief he will stay asleep, when you could not be more wrong, when that Dragon awakes again, its vengeance and retribution will be sung around a 1,000 campfires for a thousand years, much to your horror and our amusement. Deo Volente muzzy, war is coming.

                • Treebrain


                  You NEVER cite anything to support your statements, a marked contrast to me.

                  What is the ‘West’ that you talk about, do you mean NATO or are you fantasising about another ‘Coalition of the Willing’?

                  Those days are long gone, Western military forces have been defeated in Afghanistan and a Taliban victory is imminent.

                  The proxy war in Syria will see the forces supported by the West routed by Hezbollah and Assad forces.

                  Libya has fallen under the influence of al-Qaeda affiliates.

                  Iran is on the very of becoming a nuclear power and Israel and the US will do nothing to prevent it.

                • Drakken

                  Looks like your getting a little case of the vapors because I can’t do your research for you muzzy. Your arrogance of a Islamic victory will be short lived, that I assure you. Your bearded friends in Iran will soon enough understand that you don’t f*** with us. As far as the west is concerned, let the savages in Syria kill each other to their little muslim hearts content, good bloody riddance.

                • Treebrain

                  Ha, ha, ha, people have predicted the imminent demise of the state of Iran since 1979 and yet here it is, and just on the verge of becoming a nuclear power as the impotence of the US and Israel is exposed for all the world to see!

                • Drakken

                  Playing sematics with words and twisting them to suit your jihadist agenda really is quite revealing. Hopefully there is a predator drone with your name on it.

                • Treebrain

                  I do not need semantics, I use facts, sources and verifiable data as my comments make clear!

                  Read them and weep, Drakken!

                • Drakken

                  Utter tosh, complete leftist BS and Islamic propaganda, thanks for playing hadji.

                • Drakken

                  You savages by your jihadist actions define you very well.

                • Treebrain

                  I am not a savage or a jihadist Drakken, I am your worst nightmare, an educated, literate, Western liberal who is able to address each point you raise, endure the abuse you proffer, and still refute your macho agenda of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

                  Like Macbeth, you rant against the elements on the heath, but your real despair is caused because you know that the events I predict are all coming true.

                  The US military has indeed been vanquished in Afghanistan, just as it was in Vietnam.

                  Hezbollah are ensuring victory for the Assad regime.

                  Iran will become a nuclear power.

                  You can rage against the machine but the impotence of Israel and the US are apparent for all the world to see!

                • ganef_returns

                  “I am not a savage or a jihadist Drakken, I am your worst nightmare, an educated, literate, Western liberal who is able to address each point you raise, endure the abuse you proffer, and still refute your macho agenda of ethnic cleansing and genocide.”

                  No, what you are is the bore in the pub who everyone avoids. If you read your postings one after the other, the number of triumphs you claim over others “bested by me” is amazing. You are NEVER wrong, ALWAYS winning your arguments.

                  Anyone with an ounce of sense would not use a name Treebrain because trees are solid wood and have no brains and use an avatar that accurately describes you, (are you Jewish?). And, yes, I am yet another one who is insulting your intelligence, but with 8382 comments so far, it is time you got a day job. I am sure you will respond but I will not reply. I’m off downstairs to my swimming pool.

                • Treebrain


                  Still trolling and trying to drive away others with an alternative point of view?

                  If I bore you whey not just ignore me?

                  What is it to you however many comments I have made?

                  As for trying to analyse my avatar name, you are barking up the wrong tree!

                  Here is a hint as you are so interested: Think walnut?

                • Drakken

                  So you admit to being and anti-western progressive/marxist? How quaint, you look to our demise as a good thing, when nothing could be further from the truth. It is quite obvious that you are educated beyond your capacity and Ethnic and womens studies don’t cut it in the real world. What we are re-educating today really is a true marxist success story. Unfortunately reality when it runs up against leftist/Marxist theory, always ends up in bloodshed, add to the mix Islamic jihad and you have the nice making of history repeating itself with the total war concept being dusted off and used again. Much to your horror and chagrin, those days are upon us now.

                • ganef_returns

                  The collected left-wing, anti-west thoughts of Chairman Treebrain over the last three days.

                  There is no slur in any of my comments, they are facts.

                  a very common reaction from those bested in debate

                  I am not a savage or a jihadist Drakken, I am your worst nightmare

                  the events I predict are all coming true.

                  I do not need semantics, I use facts, sources and verifiable data as my comments make clear! Read them and weep

                  What I am doing is providing balanced debate, logic, verifiable sources and a point of view different from your own.

                  you already know that you have met your match!

                  You NEVER cite anything to support your statements, a marked contrast to me

                  every time you lose yet more credibility

                  The comment containing the text was declined by the moderator

                  I supplied the reference and quote, but the moderators declined my post. Now why would that be?

                  Your knowledge of history has been found wanting time and time again.

                  As you well know from previous discussions, I always encourage everyone to use a search engine to validate the sources and references I cite

                  I did not quote ‘selectively’, I quoted only what was relevant to the point I was making, quite a different thing

                  Feel free to show how my narrative is false, but we both know you can’t.
                  Are we not all grateful to have this expert analyst on a wide range of subjects from politics (several countries), the middle east, football and anything else he sees fit to advise us on?

                • Treebrain

                  Is that you there Drakken, because there is an eerie echo of the very phrases you use starting to show through the bile and invective!

                  “You NEVER cite anything to support your statements, a marked contrast to me”

                  SImply not true, ‘ganef’ as well you know!

                  I have provided several sources to support my point about the habit of certain Jews spitting on Christian clerics in Israel and several more with regard to the illegal immigration to the UK of both the traitor Samuel Miliband AND the grandfather of Michael Howard.

                  Indeed I was berated by one commentator for even knowing of such matters, let alone the relevant documentary sources!

                  “Your knowledge of history has been found wanting time and time again.”

                  Not at all, you simply do not like the history I refer to because it does not fit with your point of view.

                  That is fine, but denial of accepted facts, such as, for example, the proclivity of Jewish right-wing terrorists to murder unarmed civilians trying to bring peace like Jacob Israel de Haan, Count Folke Bernadotte and Yitzhak Rabin as well as the likes of Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall are all facts, deny them as you will!

                • ganef_returns

                  “to show through the bile and invective!”

                  I think you have finally flipped. The quotations are all yours and only the last sentence (of summary) is mine. Now you are suggesting that I am Drakken as well. And you keep repeating the same ancient irrelevant “facts” until you believe them yourself ignoring that they have all received previously negative responses.

                  “SImply not true, ‘ganef’ “. Well, you wrote the words above.

                  To paraphrase from La Cage aux Folles, “you are what you and what you are is an illusion”. Go back to football, you’re on safer grounds as I follow the champions.

                • Treebrain

                  Ganef, you are contradicting yourself once again. After repeatingly promising to ignore my posts, time and time again, like a moth to a flame, you are unable to help yourself and keep coming back.

                  Facts are facts, and the assassination of Rabin or the spitting on Christian clerics are hardly ‘ancient’, are they?

                  Your English is letting you down here as well as your logic, you are confusing facts with the responses to comments posted. A negative vote does not invalidate the facts contained in a post.

                  As for:

                  “Go back to football, you’re on safer grounds …”,

                  Er no, ganef, you are not going to bully me off this site.

                • ganef_returns

                  “”You NEVER cite anything to support your statements, a marked contrast to me” SImply not true, ‘ganef’ as well you know!”
                  Thank you for the confirmation. The first thirteen words are yours, not mine.

                • Drakken

                  East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. Israel is a western ally allied with us of western civilization. The muzzy savages you so adoringly worship are not and never will be our friends, period, so get that through you leftist thick skull.
                  Frankly I could care less about the Islamic savages getting eliminated, wage jihad on us westerners, we return the favor times 100. Eff them and theirs, love us and ours.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  Excellent, but try answering the questions

                  1: Are you saying that every dead Palestinian died because they sent a rocket into Israel?

                  2: What came first the occupation or the rockets?

                  3: And, considering that the moslems gave jews shelter from from christian persecuition and considering your hatred for Islam, how much do you hate christanity?

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “try answering the questions”
                  As soon as you do.

                • Drakken

                  The little pali savages died as a result of their jihadist sending rockets and mortars into Israel proper.

                  There is no occupation, period! As far as I am concerned, the Israelis are far too nice to the Islamic savages, I would have marched through Gaza and given it what it deserves, Carthage.

                  Jews and Christians do not in any way, shape or form worship the same God as the muslims, period, so save us your sympathy of a bunch of devil worshippers. It’s Gods job to forgive, it’s our job to arrange the meeting.

                • Mos bos

                  I had some sympathy for your arguments until you went on to accuse us (Christians) of antisemitism. How can you peddle such Hollywood nonsense propaganda ? We (Poles) for centuries gave Jews and other persecuted religious minorities asylum. They multiplied in free Poland and their circumstances and demographic share improved even further after 1795 partition – as loyalists to occupants, especially Germany and Russia.

                  In return Jews keep accusing us in worldwide media of racism, antisemitism and few other unpleasant national characteristics.

                  That’s gratitude for you.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “to accuse us (Christians) of antisemitism”

                  I was refering to the Inqusition’s persecution of Sephardic jews, which lasted for 600 years. Not the Khazar converts who settled in Poland and as you quite rightly stated, thrived.

                • Drakken

                  Those dead palis are a result result of pali actions, not Israel responses to pali aggression. If the retarded inbred Islamic savages didn’t fire rockets and mortars they would be alive.

                • Drakken

                  When you [pali lovers side with pure unadultered evil called the palis, they deserve what they get. Effem!

                • Treebrain

                  You seem to be making a racist allegation Drakken!

                  How galling it must be to see the progress of events over the last few decades?

                • Drakken

                  What you leftards call progress is nothing more than appeasing the Islamic savage.

                • Treebrain

                  What you call a response is ethnic cleansing and genocide!

                • Drakken

                  Warfare, what is coming is going to make the Serbs blush.

                • Treebrain

                  Dream on, armageddon is just not going to happen!

                  What WILL happen is that Assad will defeat the Syrian rebels, Western military prestige will be severely damaged by the ‘cut and run’ in Afghanistan (Vietnam deja vu) and Iran will become a nuclear power in a year or two.

                • Drakken

                  What I find absolutely fascinating is that you say nothing of what the muslims are doing to each other in Syria, but constantly vilify Israel for defending itself, very interesting.

                  If Iran gets a nuke, it is all over. The Europeans have had enough of islam in their midst, and they will do what we have always done best, rid ourselves of that vile cult one way or another.

                  Western military prestige like a sleeping Dragon hasn’t been fully awoken since WW 2, when it does awaken yet again, you and others of your ilk will have to face your open treachery.

                • Treebrain

                  More deliberate distortion from you because you cannot refute the points that I made.

                  I have never disputed the right of Israel to defend itself but I have questioned the occupation of territory by force, violence against unarmed civilians and children, the use of torture and collective punishment, illegal detention and the like, all of which are very well documented.

                  There is no question of Iran getting ‘a nuke’, it is simply exercising its right as an IAEA member to use nuclear power.

                  Iran will become a nuclear power in the next year or two, there is no viable ‘military option’ on the table or elsewhere, and Russia and China will not permit any military attack on Iran.

                  Time to stop your fantasies and try to determine how the world will have to come to terms with a nuclear Iran.

                • Drakken

                  Your playing a very dangerous game of semantics.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “but that was tried by Israel in 1967 and has failed.”

                  Did I get something wrong? Wasn’t it the Arab states that invaded Israel in 1967?

                  “both ended in disaster”
                  Compare and contrast Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

                • Drakken

                  Once again, you prove that handling the muslims with the silk glove only leads to disaster.

                • Treebrain

                  Er, the flaw in your argument is that IDF and its predecessors never used a silken glove, they ALWAYS used ‘disproportionate force’ and it has always backfired on Israel.

                  Rather than causing the enemy to cower, it merely rallied more to their cause, lost the sympathy of any neutral parties and has slowly but surely been losing Israel the allies that it so desperately needs!

                • Drakken

                  Keep dreaming muzzy, your misreading of the situation and utter Islamic/leftist propaganda isn’t selling and no one is buying except leftist and other useful idiots.

                • Treebrain

                  Oh, I am dreaming that the the Taliban is going to win in Afghanistan am I?

                  I dreamt that Hezbollah troops defeated the Syrian rebels and continue to do so?

                  I dreamt that Iran will become a nuclear power in the next year or so, did I?

                  A bit like the American Dream, you have to be asleep to believe it!

                • Drakken

                  Your Islamic paradise in thought will be your infidel nightmare in reality, Happy Nakba muzzy, for you will enjoy many more to come. God Bless the Crusades.

                • Treebrain

                  Calm down, the world will still turn when the Taliban win, just as it will when Iran becomes a nuclear power or Assad defeats the Syrian rebels.

                  Israel should be grateful to Hezbollah, if the rebels had won and got their hands on chemical WMD, what do you think would happen to the Golan Heights?

                  As it is the Austrian peace keepers are leaving and the Filipinos might follow.

                  Lucky that Putin proposed Russians to replace them!

                  What a strange world, Israel now needs Hezbollah and Russians to protect it?

                • Drakken

                  I give the Russians credit, when the islamaniacs get out of line, the Russians deal with them in typical Russian fashion, they killem all and let allah sortem out. Just as we will be forced to do. Your happiness at our western lack of resolve will be you undoing, enjoy it while you can.

                • Treebrain

                  It didn’t work when Soviet forces were in Afghanistan though, did it?

                • Drakken

                  Sure it did, the asscrackistanis were running out of bodies to throw at them until uncle sugar gave the savages aid and missiles.

                • independent_voice1

                  It is interesting to review the postings and responses of Professor Plum, who cannot even spell his assumed title.

                  The professor himself has 6 entries, with 6 positive responses and 41 negatives. Of the responders Ganef with 3 entries has 37 plus and 2 minus. Plum_is_an_idiot has five entries with 61 plus and 1 minus. Adam with two entries has 16 plus and zero minus.

                  I think the readers of this blog know which poster is thick.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “It is interesting to review the postings and responses”

                  Yes, it doesn’t say much for the intellect of the average Spectator reader, does it?

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “it doesn’t say much for the intellect of the average Spectator reader”
                  How patronising can you get? As a non-Spectator reader why are you making posts here?

                • J Simson

                  Zionism is not a religious movement.

                  The Zionist never had any ambition to take over the world. The sole aim of Zionism was the emancipation of Jewish people and creation of a nation-state in Israel.

                  You ignore the fact that many members of the Jewish underground were murdered in extrajudicial killings or hung.

                  Why is it that the same Britain that hung Jewish members of Etzel and Lehi can’t even protect their own soldiers on the streets of London?

                • Treebrain

                  The British did indeed hang Jewish terrorists from Etzel and Lehi.

                  Jewish terrorists have a long history of murdering those who oppose them most especially those who advocate peace.

                  They deliberately target unarmed political opponents like Jacob Israel de Haan, Count Folke Bernadotte and Yitzak Rabin because they are cowards!

                • Drakken

                  So who exactly is advocating peace on the side of the muslims? Please don’t make me laugh, the muslims want every Jew in Israel dead, so good luck with that, and please continue to whine and cry for the savages that deserve everything they have coming to them and more.

            • Adam

              Yes, let’s bring up our outrage about an organization which hasn’t been active for the past 6 and a half decades.

              Topical as ever Plum.

              By the way, killing of British soldiers – you mean the Jews hanged in Acre prison, who had fought in the British armed forces in WW2?

              • ProffessorPlum

                “Yes, let’s bring up our outrage about an organization which hasn’t been active for the past 6 and a half decades.”

                As far as I’m aware zionism is still alive and still kicking.

                “you mean the Jews hanged in Acre prison, who had fought in the British armed forces in WW2?”

                Are you saying that is was alright for zionists to kill to British soldiers because they had fought with the British in WWII?

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “As far as I’m aware Zionism is still alive and still kicking”
                  But not blowing people up, murdering soldiers in the street, Suicide bombing etc etc etc.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “But not blowing people up, murdering soldiers in the street, Suicide bombing etc etc etc.”

                  I think it dropped some bombs on Syria the other week that kiled over 30. It is shooting people though and continuing to steal Palestinian land.

                  But besides that the question was:

                  Are you saying that is was alright for zionists to kill to British soldiers because they had fought with the British in WWII?

                • independent_voice1

                  Plum, you’re sinking in your own sh*t.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  I’m not the one trying to justify the killing of British soldiers

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “I’m not the one trying to justify the killing of British soldiers”
                  …… such as the recent one in Woolwich by Islamists or the hundreds in Afghanistan by Taliban Islamists.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “such as the recent one in Woolwich by Islamists or the hundreds in Afghanistan by Taliban Islamists.”

                  No such as the ones killed by zionists, which you seem to think is ok because the zionists fought in WWII

                • Drakken

                  Hey Sparky, we are talking about the here and now, not 60 years ago ok shortbus?

                • J Simson

                  Yet you are justifying the castration of British security services on British soil.

                  To make the job of Muslim terrorists easier.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “I think it dropped some bombs on Syria the other week that kiled over 30”
                  You are the expert at trawling the Internet. You only think, why not give us a reference?

                • J Simson

                  Israel bombed weapon convoys and ammunition going to Hezbollah.

                  Obviously the dear professor is quite upset that a genocidal fanatical Shiite terror organization will be denied advanced weapons.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Israel bombed weapon convoys and ammunition going to Hezbollah.”

                  how do you know that?

                • Drakken

                  So who are we to believe? You, a full fledged muslim appeaser, or our lying infidels eyes?

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  Plum is not an infidel, he is a Muslim.

                • Drakken

                  Well in that case I wish him and others of his ilk a very happy nakba, and may he enjoy many more.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  do your own research idiot.

                • J Simson

                  Killing over 30? What proof do you have of that? Were they even civilians or IRGC troops passing on advanced weapons to Hezbollah?

                  Israel warned Assad not to pass such weapons to Hezbollah. If he crossed the red-line he deserved to be hit.

                • Drakken

                  If you love those pali savages so much, please by all means go join them in Gaza, I hear Rachel Corrie is looking for some company.

                • Drakken

                  Only 30? Boy those darn Israelis sure are slipping aren’t they?

                • Adam

                  Yes, outrageous that those Jews are concerned about chemical weapons getting into jihadist hands. How dare they do something about it?
                  Incidentally, Syria sponsored the wave of suicide bombings Israel endured during the 90’s and 2000’s, so let’s not get too hypocritical, eh dumb Plum?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Incidentally, Syria sponsored the wave of suicide bombings Israel endured during the 90’s and 2000’s,”

                  And 2000s? bit of an exageration. Hamas ended suicide bombing years ago.

                  Do you have any proof that Syria sponsored the bombing?

                • Adam

                  Yes, the 2000’s you complete cretin. Heard of the second intifada? Hamas now just uses rockets to kill and maim, because they can’t physically get into Israel to kill and maim through suicide bombings. No doubt you object to the security fence – because it stops Jews and Arabs being murdered in Israel.
                  Are you seriously saying that Syria didn’t back suicide bombings? Yours is truly a Jew hating parallel universe.

                • Treebrain

                  Actually, yes, that is precisely what they do with bombing attacks, missile attacks, bombs planted against civilians in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria and other places such as Norways where the incompetent Israeli’s murdered a waiter, or in Dubai, the list goes on and on!

                • Drakken

                  Oh what’s the matter treebrained? Your muzzy friends get whacked for waging a little jihad? Pardon me for having to find a tissue.

                • Treebrain


                  When you are in a hole, it is not a good idea to keep digging!

                  Israel has indeed opted such tactics but they have been proved to be counter-productive.

                  Please do not let my opinion influence you, instead watch the film;

                  The Gatekeepers

                  where former heads of Shin Bet will explain, in great detail, why such an approach does not work!

                • hasbara

                  Well, at least, Israelis can offer opinions without being murdered or having parts of their bodies hacked off.

                • Treebrain


                  You clearly have no idea of the human rights abuses conducted on a daily basis in Israel.

                  Try reading a few reports from the UN or Breaking the Silence.

                • Drakken

                  You never ever seem to cry and whine about Islamic abuses against us infidels do you? Hmmm now why would that be?

                • hasbara

                  “You clearly have no idea of the human rights abuses conducted on a daily basis in Israel.”

                  Interesting comment. I happen to live in Israel, my ID is a clue, and you live 4,000km away and depend on the TV and papers. So what do I know?

                  As your name suggests, a tree brain, but then, a tree does not have one.

                • Treebrain


                  You have no idea where I live, so your comment is totally superfluous!

                  Ditto for your comment on my avatar name!

                • Drakken

                  More bloody leftist drivel. Your UN that you so conveniently site is run by the OIC so it is rather amusing and interesting that you side with the very savages that are never critized when their actions against their minority are 10 times worse than what Israel has ever done.

                • Treebrain

                  Are you advocating ‘moral equivalence’?

                  Funny how Israel ignores the UN when it is inconvenient then runs to them for protection as soon as things do not go the way they want?

                  Who can ever forget the sight of Netanyahu at the UN making a fool of himself with a cartoon bomb as he begged the UN to do something about Iran?

                  If you need another example of Israel needing the UN, look at the upset and consternation in Israel at the withdrawal of Austrian peace keepers from the Syrian border.

                  Never mind, Putin offered Russians to replace them!

                  What irony, as S-300 SAMs are delivered to Syria from Russia, Russians will be patrolling the Israeli border!

                • Drakken

                  The irony is that you arselifters will get that asskicking that you so richly deserve. You savages just can’t help yourselves, you’ll go to war with Israel because it just sticks in your craw that they exist, Happy nakba hadji, may you suffer more.

                • Treebrain

                  Oh Drakken, it is fascinating that you have such touching face in the IDF!

                  There is no ‘asskicking’ to be dispensed by the IDF. In recent years it has become famous for its ‘policing’ operations such as Operation Cast Lead and shooting unarmed civilians on board the MAvi Marmara and the likes of Corrie and Hurndal rather for military prowess against those who can fight back.

                  Here are two facts for you to ponder:

                  1) Unarmed civilians disarmed and captured several of the ‘elite’ IDF soldiers who attacked them and took them below decks for medical treatment. Pictures freely available on the internet.

                  2) Israel lost the Lebanon War of 2006. Having claimed that the town of Bint Jbeil was in Israeli hands and free of enemy forces they were amazed when Hezbollah troops appeared and stood and fought the Golani brigade, amongst others, to a standstill and the Israeli’s, despite overwhelming numbers and military force, never retook the town!

                  The reasons for the defeat in this war were comprehensively documented in the two Winograd Commission reports, also freely available on the internet.

                  Read them and weep!

                  A basic rule of war is ‘Do not underestimate the enemy’, but that is clearly a painful lesson that the IDF have not yet learned!

                • Drakken

                  The fact that you spew such obvious Islamic propaganda really does take the cake and a lot of gall. Let me tell you hadji, your open support of Islamic jihad will have consequences. When the SHTF, no amount of pleading, no amount of begging for mercy will have any effect on the fact that you are an enemy collaborator, sympathizer and traitor, you will be dealt with a long drop at the end of a short rope, good luck traitor.

                • Drakken

                  You speak of human rights as though they are a one way street for the palis and that Israel should just let the palis shell them with impunity.

                • Treebrain

                  actually, Israeli citizens who are not Jewish are frequently murdered by the forces of the Israeli state, or are you not aware of this hasbara?

                  I can supply details if you need them!

                • hasbara

                  You are nothing more than a piece of sh”t with nothing better to do with your time than make up lies about the IDF. As the British Chief Rabbi said in a speech recently, ant-Zionism is the new term for anti-Semitism. Little wonder that you and the odious Professor Plum consistently score a whole lot more negatives than positives. At least he, a Muslim, admits his shortcomings, whilst you think you are perfection. Your only regular follower thinks he’s a dalek.

                • Treebrain


                  Once again you display your ignorance in public because you cannot understand the difference between anti-Zionism, a political philosophy and anti-semitism whch is something quite different!

                  Lies about the IDF, the Israeli Defence Forces have been exposed as cowardly, incompetents whose speciality is killing unarmed civilians.

                  When the IDF face real fighters, as in the Lebanon War of 2006, they crumple under pressure and lose the fight.

                  Here is a hint for you, look up the details of the Battle of Bint Jbreil.

                  Read the Winograd Commission reports about the cowardice, impotence and incompetence of Israeli politicians and military leaders.

                  Look and learn how the Hezbollah fighters are supporting the Assad regime and defeating the al-Qaeda affiliates and jihadis in Syria.

                  Reflect on how Israel now relies on Hezbollah and Russia to defend its borders as the Austrian and Filipino UN peacekeepers return home!

                • Treebrain

                  “As the British Chief Rabbi…”

                  Oh, that would be the racist, Zionist Sacks, the man who lives in pomp and splendour in a lovely mansion paid for by his supporters?

                  Fortunately his replacement has rejected this ostentatious splendour and decided to focus on the spiritual aspects of Judaism rather than pretentious grandeur!

                  Chief Rabbi Sacks is simply a laughing stock!

                • hasbara

                  The only racists here are you and Professor Plum.

                • Treebrain


                  I would be fascinated to see you explain why I am a racist!

                  Like so many of the insults by people like you, unfortunately they never hold up when subjected to scrutiny!

                • Treebrain


                  Still a deafening silence when I asked you to prove that I was a racist?

                  Like your friends such as Drakken and ganef_returns, you go all silent when challenged to back your insults and lies, do you not?

                  At least the positive aspect of such public exchanges is that people can see what you are really like.

                  Drakken advocates ethnic cleansing and genocide, ganef needs to be constantly educated about Jewish culture and Israeli history while you are simply clueless!

                  Do try to learn about racism and then we can discuss the topic?

                • independent_voice1

                  If hasbara doesn’t want to prove you are a racist, I will.

                  This blog has been running for over a month and I have used my skills as a Systems Analyst to look at the postings of a couple of contributors. This is a short piece, only 205 words and it mentions two countries, Saudi Arabia and Syria, and two terrorist organisations, al-Qaeda and Hezbollah.

                  Yet two contributors regularly change the agenda to suit their own purposes, to attack Israel, Zionists and Jews in general, irrespective of relevance At the time of writing, there have been 331 postings in total. My first subject is ProffessorPlum, who cannot even spell his avatar name but criticises others for spelling and grammar. He is an admitted Muslim and contributed 29 postings, around 9% of the total. His postings attracted 57 positive votes but 242 negatives. Of the positives, almost half came from one person, Treebrain. Of the respondents directly to him, they attracted 42 negatives and 433 positives. Almost all his postings included a reference to Israel or Jews.

                  And then there is Treebrain, with a total of 83 postings, 25% of the grand total; 36 of them attracted no positives at all. 54 liked what he said and 274 did not. 47 of the likes came from a Dalek but none from Plum. The people who responded directly to Plum attracted 64 positives and 26 negatives and almost the postings made reference to Israel or the Jews.

                  Treebrain even poses the question “in what way am I a racist?” Racist? I believe the statistics coupled with the content of the postings answer that. I would question why the two are allowed free range to hijack blogs?

                • Treebrain

                  Your ‘skills’ as a systems analyst, are you having a laugh?

                  You clearly do not even know what a systems analyst does, here is a clue, it is in the name, it involves ‘systems’, not a website comment section!

                  Your ‘analysis’ is merely a few statistics and some highly dubious conclusions, bulwarked by dodgy logic and ignorance of how sites such as this operate!

                  The reason I have made so many posts is because I have been repeatedly attacked by a small ‘concert party’ whose names are clearly apparent.

                  They operate together to slander, abuse and troll any who oppose their Zionist, right-wing, pro-Israeli agenda, frequently confuse anti-Semiticsm with opposition or disagreement with policies of the Israeli government.

                  They rely on personal abuse, slander and mis-representation and are characterised by their general ignorance of history, philosophy, religion and politics and their complete inability to cite sources, use logic or acknowledge alternative points of view.

                  The likes of Drakken advocated ethnic cleansing and genocide , Hasbara specialises in abuse, ganef in ignorance and you are the pseudo-intellectual as your boast about the relevance of a ‘systems analyst’ makes clear!

                  You seem to think that the number of likes a post is some refectino of its quality, but are aghast that I have nearly 60,000 likes in total, so although you may not agree with my views, it is quite clear than many people do?

                  Try to deal with it!

                • independent_voice1

                  “Your ‘skills’ as a systems analyst, are you having a laugh?

                  You clearly do not even know what a systems analyst does, here is a clue, it is in the name, it involves ‘systems’, not a website comment section!”

                  You really are a clueless idiot. You have absolutely no idea what a Systems Analyst is or does. So, before you make yourself look more stupid, if that is possible, go to

                  “A systems analyst designs new IT solutions to improve business efficiency and productivity. Working closely with the client, analysts examine existing business models and flows of data, discuss their findings with the client, and design an appropriate improved IT solution.”

                  There is a clue there. We look at data (repeat data) and analyse it to find improvements or new methods. I did this, professionally for some years for a famous multinational and for ten years as a lecturer at university teaching the subject at degree level. As an independent SA, my fees were hundred of pounds per day and I am now retired. You, on the other hand have clearly too much time on your hands, judging by the number of postings you make.

                  Anyone could achieve 60,000 likes by sheer weight of postings on trivial populist subjects but when you are out of your depth, such as here, and in the Spectator, your likes are clearly dwarfed by dislikes but you make excuses.

                  Try to deal with it.

                • Treebrain

                  Clearly, it is you that cannot deal with it!

                  Your pathetic attempts to make yourself seem more important by referring to how much money you used to earn REALLY enhances your credibility and relevance.

                  Your sad and desperate use of referrals to try and justify the value ofcomments you and your cronies hasbara, ganef and Drakken make, and the way that, time and time again, you vote down those who hold an alternative point of view to these right-wing, Zionist, unconditionally pro-Israel types perfectly encapsulates your inability to tolerate, let along respond to others!

                  Face the facts, Assad will remain in power (and receive Russian S-300 SAMs), the US will cut and run in Afghanistan and the Taliban will win and, despite all the talk of ‘red lines’ and ‘all options being on the table’, Iran will become a nuclear power in the next year.

                  Just follow your own advice and try to deal with it!

                • independent_voice1

                  “referring to how much money you used to earn REALLY enhances your credibility and relevance”

                  About as much as your references to you 60,000 supports from the likes of a dalek.

                  “Israel is a state and its citizens are called Israeli’s”. NO they are not, they are called Israelis and I never called them a race. I note that the others you refer to on this blog have abandoned discussion, probably because of your tree brain and I will now follow them.
                  See you elsewhere when you next show us how clever you are. You don’t get out much, do you? Regards to UKIP.

                • Treebrain


                  Once again you fail to provide any evidence whatsoever of any racist comment I have made!

                  Like your cronies habara, ganef and the one with the avatar name containing ‘plum’, you LOVE to throw insults, but can never back them up despite repeatedly being asked to do so!

                  You do enjoy cutting and pasting quotes from my comments, but fail to do so when called with regard to raise.

                  Once again you have been exposed as a person who makes baseless assertions in an attempt to smear another.

                  What credibility you once had has totally disappeared. Rather sad for someone who prides himself on his skills of analysis!

                  As for being clever, that is never something I have claimed, but even you have been forced to acknowledge I have been right!

                  I do SO look forward to your next post proving that I am a racist, such fun!

                • Treebrain

                  independent voice1,

                  You seem to spend most of your comments attacking me personally rather than addressing the article or the comments made about it!

                  Rather than refute my comment, prove me wrong or provide any insight or information to enhance the discussion, you bombard us with totally irrelevant facts about how much you earn, and your former career, and what great analytical skills you have!

                  Amongst all the smoke and mirrors, there is still no evidence whatsoever to support your assertion that I am a racist, so all can see that you have made a baseless accusation.

                  “If hasbara doesn’t want to prove you are a racist, I will.”

                  Except all you provided was a ragbag of assertions, some very basic numbers and percentages derived from them but no actual DATA at all!

                  Your repeated personal insults make fascinating reading, but are in fact fantasy as you have no idea who I am, where I am or indeed anything at all about me!

                  You assert that I am a UKIP supporter, as if that were an insult but in fact it only goes to show that in your frustration and frustration you are totally clueless!

                • Treebrain

                  “I note that the others you refer to on this blog have abandoned discussion…”

                  Yes because they were unable to justify their positions and assertions, were exposed as a ‘concert party’ and saw that smears and personal abuse are no substitute for debate!

                • hasbara

                  independent_voice1 sums up why you are a racist better than me.

                • Treebrain


                  “independent_voice1 sums up why you are a racist better than me.”

                  Except he does not, does he, any more than you and your cronies can ever back up your crude slurs, slanders and insults?

                  As for your pathetic attempt to denigrate my comments here, if you actually read them, let alone understood them, you would fully comprehend that they make no sense!

                • independent_voice1

                  What is your train of thought to get from Jihad to most of your postings here, on Israel and Jews?

                • Treebrain


                  Er, problem is that there is no evidence in my comments of racism is there?

                  Please enlighten us all by providing hard facts to support your assertion or risk being exposed as an abusive troll!

                • Drakken

                  That is the problem right there, your opinion, sorry but I feel therefore I am as your policy positions aren’t going to cut it. Yes force does work with Islamic jihadist.

                • J Simson

                  why is it OK for a British mandate far away from UK to hung Jewish activists but wrong for Britain to defend herself against Islamic terrorists on her own soil?

                  Have you forgotten how many Arabs, British soldiers killed during the Arab revolt 1936-1939?

                • Adam

                  Those hanged and publicly flogged were often not guilty of killing anyone.
                  I didn’t realize that you weren’t referring to the Stern Gang or Irgun, and instead cast all Zionist Jews (ie the vast majority of Jews) as terrorists. Well, at least we know your bigotry now.
                  Funny how your sensibilities to terrorism go quiet when it is Islamist inspired.

          • Mos bos

            I do not know whether he really is antisemitic (invective hugely overused, alongside islamophobia) but I actually think that he posed very valid question which is missing: what or who made our islamophilic politicians and our media so terrified?

            I am not a long standing Spectator reader as yourself, I am just searching for the answer to this very question: Who stands behind the enforced Islamophilia sweeping UK and the Continent?

            Simple description of the symptoms of this malaise is no longer satisfactory and makes me very angry and frustrated.

        • J Simson

          That happened a long time ago. If it happened today do you think UK would be silent as they are on Islamic terrorism? I guess it is only understandable when Muslims do it.

          Of course they are members of the religion of peace so they get a free pass.

    • Daniel Maris

      Around here, only Fraser Nelson believes that lie.

      • Mussi Buma

        I suppose it is too much to expect those who tout their opinions on islam to actually read any of the core texts of islam.

        Perhaps someone can direct Fraser Nelson to the Dummies Guide to The Religion of Peace here:

        • Daniel Maris

          That’s a very neat summary! I would recommend that to anyone – together with the reminder that all followers of the religion hold him to be the perfect example for all men.

    • ProffessorPlum

      “The lie that “Islam is a religion of peace” should be challenged each and every time it’s said until this falsehood is never said again .”

      What changed then, unlike under Catholicism Jews were able to follow their religion. When the Arabs moved into Spain they left Jews in charge of cities they took.

      If you feel so bad about a people who gave Jews shelter from christianity, how do you feel about christianity?

      • ganef_returns

        Like the other poster says, Plum is an idiot.

        • ProffessorPlum

          What are you saying Ganef, that my question is not a valid one?? Is there some factual error in the post??

          Or are you just too frightened to answer the question?

          • ganef_returns

            I do not enter into a dialogue with a racist, anti-Semitic bigot such as you. And it is you that avoids answering questions put to you.

            But on this occasion only, your posting is not valid because it is not relevant to the subject matter that you regularly, both here and in the Daily Telegraph, seek to hijack for your own sick ideology.

            “Is there some factual error in the post??” (That should be one question mark, ignoramus.
            It may be true but addresses the subject matter as much as introducing yesterday’s great win by England.

            • Treebrain

              Oh, ganef_returns,

              Once again you have been bested in argument and all you can do in response can is question a question mark and provide a personal insult?

              Do you have any idea how sad you appear to be?

              • Drakken

                The only one who is sad looking is you who give aid, comfort and collaborate with Islamic evil.

                • Treebrain

                  Oh, another member of the ‘concert party’ appears!

                  Are you actually a different person or simply somebody using multiple avatars?

                  I am certainly not Prof. Plum but then you know that anyway.

                  I can fully understand your anger and extreme frustration as events are not going your way, but reality bites and falsely claiming I support ‘evil’ or ‘Islam’ might make you feel better but that does not make it true, does it?

                • Drakken

                  I post under my name and my name only you commi/leftist. Events are rapidly spinning out of control and will spill over here into the west, then your going to see a Balkans on steroids.
                  When you openly side with and enemy of us in the west, that makes you an enemy collaborator period. History has shown time and time again what happens to those traitors and Quislings in our midst. Let me tell you what happens in Israel, those Israelis are going to tire with dealing with a bunch of Islamic savages who never wanted peace and never will. I say let Israel give them exactly what they so richly deserve.

                • Treebrain

                  You can post under any name you like, that is your prerogative.

                  Unfortunately because you have lost the argument, you have decided to launch ad hominem attacks instead.

                  These merely serve to illustrate your desperation, frustration, impotence and immaturity.

                  You embarrass yourself and the causes you pertain to support by such actions.

                • Drakken

                  In case it has escaped your notice leftard, niceties and pleasantries with you folks on the left are coming to an end. I have lost nothing, for I simple point out the bloody obvious to you folks that want to sing kumbaya and wish everything away. I see the world as it is, you see it as if we just add more socialism and give our enemies more of what they ask for they will give us peace. Good luck with that appeasement policy, reality is going to be a very painful thing for you and others of your leftist ilk.

                • Treebrain

                  Drakken, just admit it, you are your aggressive, Zionist, right-wing tactics have been tried since 1967 and they have failed!

                  Israel is losing former allies like Egypt and Turkey, the IDF has been driven out of Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, has seen the BSD movement emerge and go from strength to strength, has seen recognition of Palestine by an ever-increasing number of states and supra-national organisations, the Gaza Blockade policy is in tatters, atrocities like the Mavi Marmara murders, Operation Cast Lead (where the IDF could not even find Shalit!) and the killing of unarmed civilians like Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall, the diplomatic gaffes and blunders, Netanyahu being ridiculed at the UN with his cartoon bomb, Iran becoming a nuclear power, to name but a few.

                  Now Syria has seen Hezbollah activity that strengthens them even more, the West will be defeated and Russia and China will reap the diplomatic rewards for supporting Assad and providing S-300 SAMs.

                  Domestically, the settlers and ultra-orthodox are delegitimising the state by refusing to accept the rule of law, Jewish women are praying at the Wailing Wall, Jewish women are refusing to sit at the back of the bus just as black people in the US did in their struggle for basic human rights, and the crisis of the ultra-orthodox doing military service looms ever larger.

                  Little wonder that you are so angry and bitter?

                • Drakken

                  Please just admit that you are a Islamic jihadist sympathizer and collaborator, that you support and defend Islamic savages over Western Civilization. That you want the savages to win over us westerners. That you cannot do enough to bring us back to the dark ages under Islamic hegemony? War is coming and my feelings on the subject are irrevelent, I deal in simple facts and you operate under false premises and feelings. Turkey under Erdogan is dragging Turkey back to the Islamic Ottoman days and thank God(not allah) won’t be allowed into the EU to flood Europe with millions of Turks. Egypt was never an ally in the first place and if the MB has their way they will go to war with Israel, AGAIN, and hopefully this time Israel keeps the Sinai. As for your pali friends, they will continue to push until Israel takes off the kid gloves and puts on the mailed fist and deals with those bloody savages once and for all and gives Gaza a taste of Carthage. The West Bank will be lost to Arabs finally and forever. As for your friends Corrie and Hurndahl, those anti-western, jihadist loving useful idiots of the left got exactly what they so richly deserved, I do hope the traitors in our midst like you join them soon, with a hearty good riddance and say hi to the devil for me. You sympathizers and Quisling traitors will be held to account soon enough and don’t say you weren’t warned for your utter stupidity and ignorance. Israel will survive in spite your best leftist traitorous actions. Your Islamic propaganda will be you undoing and they will hang you for it.

                • Treebrain

                  So in your anger and rage and frustration, you finally show your true colours and advocate ethnic cleansing and genocide in Israel and surrounding regions such as the Sinai!

                  I wonder how many others here agree with your views?

                • Drakken

                  So in your complete surrender to Islamic aggression you advocate we bow and kneel before our new muslim masters in the vain hope order that we survive? I say not now, not ever, we westerners will never surrender to islam period!

                • Treebrain

                  You are becoming hysterical!

                  What on earth are you ranting about, do try and keep a sense of perspective?

                • Drakken

                  Hysterical no, your obvious Quisling feelings let others know where you stand and it is on the wrong side, good luck with that in very near future, for history is never kind to traitors.

                • Treebrain

                  You are becoming hysterical and have lost all sense of reason!

                  I doubt anyone advocating ethnic cleansing and genocide has any credibility left.

                • Drakken

                  History always repeats itself and war in the end always decides who winners and losers are no matter how much you lefty revisionist try to deny it.

                • Treebrain

                  Actually, history does not always repeat itself, otherwise we would would all be living in caves and wearing skins!

                • Drakken

                  Your lack of education and leftist indoctrination really does come through. That you openly side with the Islamic savages does show your true colors.

                • Treebrain

                  Er, the flaw in your argument is that there are no ‘Islamic savages’ and I have not sided with anyone.

                • Drakken

                  Your a liar and a complete Islamic propagandist, good luck with that Sparky.

                • Treebrain

                  I have not lied anywhere, and I defy you to prove it.

                  You really are getting desperate as your ignorance of history, inability to understand what is being discussed, personal abuse and advocation of ethnic cleansing and genocide show your true nature.

                • Drakken

                  Your constant barrage of Islamic/leftist propaganda and anti-western hatred is complete BS and a bold faced bloody lie. Facts are stubborn things leftist and facts have a very stubborn habit of biting you in your ignorance.

                • Treebrain

                  Would you know a fact if you saw one?

                  I have constantly quoted facts, cited sources and validated my assertions whilst you, on the other hand, have vented your spleen and indulged in personal abuse.

                  You frustration and impotence culminated in you repeatedly advocating ethnic cleansing and genocide!

                  Sadly for you, nobody else seems to endorse your views, do they?

                • Drakken

                  You haven’t validated jacks*** ! Your constant effing with the facts does not make them true, and your constant Islamic peace now garbage isn’t selling and only leftarded useful idiots are buying the propaganda you site as facts, cited sources and unvalidated garbage. Garbage in is garbage out.

                  The only one frustrated and are impotent is you and others of your leftist ilk.

                  Come on Sparky, put your money where your jihadist loving mouth is and join your cause. Carry that peace now sign in a war zone I dare you.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “Jewish women are praying at the Wailing Wall, Jewish women are refusing to sit at the back of the bus”

                  You really do talk a load of cr*p based on absolutely no personal evidence. Was is the “wailing wall”? Do you mean the kotel? Nobody has used your title in decades.

                • Treebrain

                  Oh really, then have a look at the results when you Google the term?

                  It would seem that France24, the BBC, The Guardian, Sky News and many, many others are mistaken because they all use the term freely, as recent,y as the last few days.

                  By all means critique my comments but do check the facts before you do so or you will be left looking foolish, just as you are now!

                • Drakken

                  Your so called facts are pure unadultered leftist/muslim propaganda. You still haven’t answered my question as to why if you are so right, why aren’t you there putting your money where your leftist muzzy loving mouth is?

                • Treebrain

                  Except the are not,are they Drakken? Unlike yourself, I cite genuine sources such as the BBC, Sky, Haaretz, the film ‘The Gatekeepers’ and the like.

                  Are you really claiming that the former heads of Shin Bet are regurgitating “pure unadultered leftist/muslim propaganda.”?

                • Drakken

                  Every war you muslims started has always ended in your brutal defeat, more to come.

                • Treebrain

                  Clearly not as the outcome of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon showed, although of course that was the result of Israeli aggression!

                  A more recent defeat for the IDF would be the LebanonWar of 2006.

                  If you want the details and reasons for the IDF failure in 2006, read the Winograd Commission reports?

          • Plum_is_an_idiot

            Current scores ganef 16 agree and 2 don’t. Plum 3 agree and 14 don’t. I think ganef wins the argument.

      • Plum_is_an_idiot

        Plum is an idiot.

        • anotherjoeblogs


      • monkey for sale

        I’m an atheist .
        How do you feel about sharia law?

        • Treebrain

          Same as Beth Din?

          Of course if you are in favour of sexist legal systems you would presumably agree with the way Charles Saatchi treated Nigella Lawson in public?

          • monkey for sale

            Are you a muslim or a useful idiot ?

            • Treebrain

              As my comments make clear, I am neither.

              BTW, personal insults are no substitute for debate. They make you look weak and desperate for something to say.

              • monkey for sale

                Islam is not up for debate : Islam is a violent ideology .

                You speak rather grandly about “personal insults” . Post about women’s rights in Islamic countries .

                You’re a fraud . A plastic liberal and a wannabe player.

                • Treebrain

                  Actually the role of Islam IS open to debate, and anyone familiar with history will know that the Crusades were conducted with great violence by Christian attacks on Islam, while the Jewish Wars with the Romans contained atrocities by Jewish fanatics as described in the ‘Roman History’ of Cassius Dio amongst others.

                  No religion has a monopoly on violence and to claim so shows a marked and shocking ignorance of history.

                  The weakness of your argument is made clear by constant personal insult and repeated, failed attempts to change the subject, notably with regards to women’s right in Islamic companies.

                  You clearly know nothing about how women are treated in Jewish society, in the Beth Din courts, in the attacks on women who refuse to sit in the back of buses in Israel, (just like ‘negroes’ did in the US before they earned civil rights) or life for haredi women!

                  Denial is not just a river in Egypt!

                • monkey for sale

                  Actually the role of Islam IS open to debate, and anyone familiar with
                  history will know that the Crusades were conducted with great violence
                  by Christian attacks on Islam

                  If Islam is so open why are people in Egypt and Turkey rioting against the increasing Islamisation of their countries ?

                • Treebrain

                  Riots in countries have many causes, none of which are exclusive to Islam.

                • monkey for sale

                  Why are people in Egypt protesting against the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, is it because they want more Islam or less Islam ?

                • Treebrain

                  See my reply above.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  Treebrain, your responses do not answer the basic question monkey for sale poses. The answer is LESS. Now that’s not too difficult, is it?

                • Treebrain

                  No, you are quite wrong, I did answer his question, but you just didn’t like my reply, which is not at all the same thing, now is it?

                • monkey for sale

                  Why are people on the streets in Egypt, and have been on the streets in Turkey, is it because they want more Islam or less Islam ?

                • Treebrain

                  As already stated, the causes of riots are numerous, these protests involve political rights and economics opportunities, amongst other things.

                  It is not just about ‘Islam’ because there are many different political systems in Islamic countries, different histories and different cultures in play.

                  Do demonstrations in Christian countries get reduced to ‘more Christianity or less’?

                  Were the riots in Tel Aviv in 2012 about more Judaism or less, or were they in fact manifestations of the racism in Israeli society and a protest against black African immigrants?

                • Drakken

                  Wherever islam ears its ugly head, bloodshed always follows.

                • Drakken

                  Your understanding of history is stunningly stupid, but then again what the re-education camps they call schools in todays really does explain it all.

                  The Crusades were a result of muslim aggression, you do realize that the holy land was Christian before the Islamic hoards came crawling out of the Arabian desert right?
                  Your denial of anything remotely resembling reality is quite stunning actually, as we say in the states, you just can’t fix stupid, not even with duct tape.

                • Treebrain

                  Once again you fail to understand that abuse is no substitute for debate.

                  You have already demonstrated your spectacular ignorance of historian, and simply refuse to address an issue further when you have been proven wrong.

                  One of the major events during the Crusades was the sack of Constantinople by Crusaders.

                  Your constant personal abuse, in the absence of any real insight, analysis or information clearly shows that you are out of your depth with regard to the subject matter!

                • Drakken

                  You haven’t proved a goddamn thing other than you openly side with our enemies and I have zero tolerance in dealing with traitors like you, the time for niceties and pleasantries with Quislings like you are over.
                  If you can’t stand the heat sunshine GTF out of the kitchen.
                  God bless the Crusades, another is coming.

      • Adam

        Look up dhimmitude, Plum. It’s how Jews and Christians were forced to live under Islamic rule.

        Oh, and you’re a prime example of it – except in your case it’s voluntary.

        • ProffessorPlum

          “Look up dhimmitude,”

          Look up the inquisition, which forced many jews to seek refuge in Arab lands. The fact still remains that Jews were treated far by Arabs than they were by Christians for centuries. Despite that you still have a strong hatred for Islam.

          How strong is your hatred for christianity?????

          • J Simson

            Since the Crusades and inquisition, christianity has evolved. There now is separation of state and Church.

            This is no excuse for you supporting Sharia which does not permit the separation of State and religion.

          • Drakken

            Thank God(not allah) that the Crusades and Inquisition got rid of the Islamic menace on the Iberian peninsula, otherwise we would still be stuck in the dark ages.

          • Adam

            It is true that Jews had a better time in Muslim lands during the time of the Christian Inquisition. However, let’s not get all rose tinted about what this entailed – dhimmitude was in force, which is a form of apartheid, and Jews had to pay jizya for the privilege of being treated as second class citizens.
            Incidentally, it is quite irrelevant because Muslim lands today are utterly intolerant, opposed to pluralism (and deeply anti-Semitic) and are almost without exception despotic.

            • ProffessorPlum

              “It is true that…”

              You don’t need to repeat what I’ve already said.

              what I want to know is how strong is your hatred for christianity?

              “Incidentally, it is quite irrelevant because Muslim lands today are utterly intolerant,…..”

              which is most likely why many of them still have jewish communities

              • Adam

                When did you stop beating your wife?
                “still have Jewish communities…”? Such comments really prove your cluelessness.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Such comments really prove your cluelessness.”

                  Did you mean to ‘my’ and not ‘your’

                  “About 25,000 Jews live in Iran and most are determined to remain no matter what the pressures – as proud of their Iranian culture as of their Jewish roots.


                  There are other Middle eastern countries and North African ones with jewish communities too.

                • Adam

                  Most Iranian Jews want to leave, and there have been recent show trials of Jews, who suffer vilification and harassment (as do the Bahai and Zoroastrians). As for other Jewish communities, take Iraq for example. In the 1940’s 40% of Baghdad was Jewish. Now, not one Jew is left in the whole of Iraq. Yemenite Jews have had to flee (some were recently murdered for being Jews) and the community has effectively ceased to exist – as they have in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Libya). The Libyans have as official policy that no Jew can go there. The handful left in Tunisia are leaving.
                  It’s a tragic story Plum, and only a wilfully blind, or incredibly thick person, could think it otherwise. I wonder which you are.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Most Iranian Jews want to leave, ”

                  No they don’t read the link. Israel couldn’t even bribe them to leave.


                  “there have been recent show trials of Jews”

                  No, there have been trials of jews who were caught spying.

                  “take Iraq for example.”

                  Yes, let’s:


                  Your post is based on lies.

                • Adam

                  They were NOT spying. And most do want to leave, as they face discrimination and harassment. A Jewish woman was murdered for being Jewish a while back, and the others keep quiet. Your lies about Iraqi Jews beggar belief.
                  Here’s an experiment – walk down the street in Ramallah, Mecca, Tunis, Benghazi, Damascus, Baghdad, dressed as a religious Jew, and see how long you last.
                  I believe the phrase is useful idiot.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “Your post is based on lies”

                  And so are all yours.

        • Treebrain

          How are Christians and Muslims treated in Israel under a Jewish legal code?

          Are you completely ignorant of the ultra-orthodox habit of spitting on Christian clerics?

          • Adam

            No, not ignorant – just not gullible to lies and distortions.
            The only country with a growing Christian population in the Middle East is Israel.
            The only country n the Middle East which affords Muslims basic civil rights is Israel.

            • Treebrain

              More Israeli propaganda, you seem to have forgotten that Turkey is in the Middle East, how very convenient for you!

              • Adam

                No, I’m not Israeli, nor is it propaganda.
                I like the tacit acceptance (and lack of outrage) that Christians are in sharp decline throughout the Arab world.
                What a charlatan you are.

                • Treebrain

                  You don’t have to an Israeli to regurgitate Israeli propaganda, particularly of the right-wing, Zionist kind!

                  As for the habit for certain Israeli Jews to spit on Christian clerics, that is neither a lie or a distortion.

                  “Senior Catholic cleric: ‘If Jews want respect, they must respect others’

                  In the wake of the ‘price tag’ vandalism at the Latrun monastery, Father Pierbattista Pizzaballa cautions Israelis over how Christians are treated in Israel.”

                  (Haaretz – Sept 7, 2012)

                  There are many, many more such articles available by the most simple search on the internet.

                  While you are at it you might also read the details of the attack by Jewish ultra-orthodox on the Latrun monastry?

                • Drakken

                  Carrying water for the islamaniacs and Islamic propaganda isn’t going to spare you in the end lefty.

                • Treebrain

                  Citing a documented example to support my point that the practice of spitting on Christian clerics is commonplace in Israel has got nothing to do with being a Muslim or leftwing.

                  Fascinating how you continue to spew insults because you cannot address the actual issue, refute what I said or question the source cited!

                • Drakken

                  Fascinating that you continue to openly side with Islamic jihadist over us of western civilization. Nobody is buying your Islamic propaganda and Quislings like you really should take note as to what happens to traitors.

                • Adam

                  Do you seriously want to play this silly game? Do you really need me to point out the number of anti-Semitic attacks carried out by Christians on Jews throughout the world, and the history of Christian anti-Semitism? Do you want me to then conclude that Christians are all awful people?
                  Pathetic – and motivated by simple bigotry.
                  Ultimately, you can’t escape the fact that Israel is the ONLY country in the Middle East with a growing Christian population. It is in sharp decline everywhere else – but then, you can’t blame Jews for that can you? Such is your faux “outrage”. Utterly transparent.

                • Treebrain

                  Oh, please!

                  Not the same old, ‘Jews as victims’ card that appears as regular as clockwork as soon as any issue involving Jews being held to account for their actions is raised?

                  Were you completely unaware of the decades-old ‘tradition’ of yeshiva students to spit on Christian clerics in Israel?

                  What ARE your views on this practice?

                • Adam

                  Clearly Christians are victims – in Arab and Muslim lands – by which you seem completely unbothered. Jews have, through the ages been victims of Christians – not the other way round. Your denial of this demonstrates that you are simply beyong reasonable dialogue.
                  As for your laughable accusation that religious Jews routinely spit on Christians, I think perhaps you’d be more at home on Stormfront.

                • Treebrain

                  More denial Adam, it is no substitute for dialogue!

                  “As for your laughable accusation that religious Jews routinely spit on Christians…”

                  It is not an accusation Adam, it is simply a fact. You may very well be ignorant of this fact, but it is nonetheless true. Not only true, but a very well documented event.

                  “A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem’s Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.”

                  (Haaretz, ‘Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them’ October 12, 2004)

                  “In a reference to the long-standing, continual incidents of Orthodox Jewish extremists in Jerusalem spitting at Christian clergy, Pizzaballa said: “When I came to the country, I was told that I should know that if I walk around with a frock in the city [of Jerusalem], people would spit on me, and I shouldn’t be offended, it’s normal.”

                  (Haaretz, ‘Senior Catholic cleric: If Jews want respect, they must respect others’ September 7, 2012)

                  You may consider the accusation laughable, but here are just two instances reporting that this should not be considered a laughing matter.

                  Now that you have some of the facts Adam, what is your view on this practice, would you condemn the Jews who spit on Christian clerics in modern Israel?

                • Adam

                  It is not a fact, nor is it “well documented”. Religious Jews do not have a habit of spitting at Christians. It is a lie.
                  You cite two examples, eight years apart. I have no idea if they are true – neither do you because you were not there. If they are true, they are disgusting and inexcusable. However, to equate these two examples with the flight of hundreds of thousands of Christians from Arab countries (several hundred thousand Copts have fled Egypt in the last few months, whilst several dozen have been murdered), not to mention the centuries of Christian persecution of Jews, which you seem to studiously belittle, is indeed laughable.

                • Treebrain

                  Still in denial Adam?

                  i cited two sources, not two examples, do you not know the difference?

                  I quoted two sources several years apart to illustrate that it is persistent, on-going problem, not a unique incident.

                  If you really wanted to know about the issue, look on the web as I suggested and you will see that the articles I cited are hardly isolated instances.

                  Well done for condemning them, though, a tip of the hat to you for that.

                  However, changing the subject to topics such as Christians in Muslim lands or the treatment of Jews in Christian lands is not going to get away from the topic of Christian clerics being spat upon in Israel.

                  You do not win an argument by changing the subject!

              • Drakken

                Side with the islamaniacs, perish with them.

                • Treebrain

                  Oh don’t be such a drama queen, nobody is going to perish!

                  Hezbollah will continue to lead Assad forces in Syria against the rebels and drive them from the towns and cities they currently hold, just as they are doing right now in Homs.

                  Realising that they are losing, the rebels will collapse and flee.

                • Drakken

                  The more the savages slaughter each other to their little jihadist hearts content, the better for us infidels, why aren’t you there by the way? Supporting your Islamic allies?

          • Drakken

            Far better than living as a dhimmi under Islamic sharia law dumbass.

          • Plum_is_an_idiot

            Only someone as ignorant as you could make the above statement. Christian and Muslim Israelis have equal rights. As for your spitting allegation, not worth refuting won’t.

      • Tom M

        “Arabs MOVED into Spain??????

      • J Simson

        How do you feel about being a Dhimmi?

        Do you know what the laws of Sharia are regarding Dhimmitude?

  • Blorgh

    There’s only one problem with this commentary: Sunni extremists already ARE fighting Shia extremists. Syria has turned into a proxy war between the Syrian government, Iran and Hezbollah on the one hand, and Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Erdogan’s Turkey on the other. Those liberal democracy-loving rebels we keep hearing about are but a small minority (probably wondering how their rebellion was taken out of their hands). And while all this insanity plays out, the Christian Syrians are just caught in the crossfire.

    • Austin Barry

      To what extent is Cameron’s position dictated by the fact that 96% of UK muslims are Sunni? Votes to be had?

      • Daniel Maris

        Mmm…I am not sure you are right there. Certainly Shia Muslims in this country make counter claims. We have a lot of Shia Muslims from Pakistan here I think.

        • Austin Barry

          “At least 96% of Muslims in Britain, and approximately 1520 or 96% of masjids or mosques, are Sunni, and about 2% are Shi’a, with 67 masjids. ”

          • Daniel Maris

            WIkipedia clams 10-15% for the UK. And I am sure Shias claim even higher! 🙂

          • HFC

            Trouble is, they all look the same. They all seem to wear long robes and beards so how do they distinguish between themselves – or do they change sides from time to time?

            Just askin’.

  • darwins beard

    we could just wait till the smoke clears and send drones in to finish off the rest, I may write to David Cameron

    • Drakken

      The B-52 does wonders with Arc-Light strikes, the heck with kid gloves, take out and use the mailed fist.