Blogs

Memo to Iran’s apologists: President Ahmadinejad has denied the Holocaust

26 April 2013

6:13 PM

26 April 2013

6:13 PM

Has President Ahmadinejad ever denied the Holocaust? David Morrison, co-author with Peter Oborne of a new apologia on the Iranian ‘government’, appears to think that he has not. In a bizarre and disgraceful interview with the Telegraph, alongside his co-author, Morrison recites the main claim of their book – which is that the Iranian regime is not pursuing nuclear weapons. Oborne’s Telegraph colleague Con Coughlin too kindly skewers that claim as ‘delusional’.

But even more alarming than that conspiracy theory of theirs is Morrison’s claim (uncorrected by Oborne, the Telegraph’s chief political commentator) that he has ‘never come across a statement from President Ahmadinejad saying that the Holocaust didn’t happen’. Here is a transcript of the relevant excerpt (from about 17 minutes in).  The Telegraph’s interviewer asks how anybody could trust a regime which:

‘Q: …for example held a conference to discuss the historical veracity of the Holocaust.

David Morrison: I’m not sure whether the conference actually said that.’

Really? Well, for the record, it did. There was not one historian present. The 2006 conference attendees included David Duke, Robert Faurisson and Frederick Toben.  Each and every speech was dedicated to claiming that the Holocaust had not occurred and/or that Israel should not exist.

Going on, the interviewer tries to correct Morrison’s claim by saying:

‘Q: Holocaust deniers were present.

David Morrison: You may be right indeed.’

[Alt-Text]


No, not ‘may be right’. ‘Right’. What else are Faurisson et al? Historians? Why the ‘may be’?

Worse is to come. For Morrison goes on:

‘David Morrison: I have never come across a statement from Ahmadinejad saying that the Holocaust didn’t happen. He’s said other things that question the Holocaust and the numbers killed in the Holocaust, yes, but I’ve never come across an absolute denial of it.’

This is quite simply unbelievable. And amazing that Peter Oborne, who has actually written a book with this man, can sit beside him and not challenge the claim that he has ‘never come across a statement from Ahmadinejad saying that the Holocaust didn’t happen.’

Here, for the benefit of Mr Morrison and Mr Oborne, are just a couple of Ahmadinejad’s statements on the Holocaust which they have found it so difficult to locate. The first is from the BBC:

‘They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets.

If someone were to deny the existence of God… or prophets and religion, they would not bother him.  However, if someone were to deny the myth of the Jews’ massacre, all the Zionist mouthpieces and the governments subservient to the Zionists tear their larynxes and scream against the person as much as they can.’

And the second (reported by Oborne’s own paper, the Telegraph) to a rally in Tehran in January 2009:

‘The Holocaust is a lie.’

There are numberless other examples. One of the other candidates in the forthcoming Iranian Presidential elections, the current Mayor of Tehran, Mohammad-Bagher Ghalibaf, has recently blasted Ahmadinejad for his Holocaust denial, saying that it has damaged Iran internationally.

Why David Morrison and Peter Oborne would pretend that Iran is not seeking to acquire nuclear technology is one disturbing question.  Why the Telegraph’s chief political correspondent would co-operate in a denial of Holocaust denial is another.

More Spectator for less. Stay informed leading up to the EU referendum and in the aftermath. Subscribe and receive 15 issues delivered for just £15, with full web and app access. Join us.




Show comments
  • Simon Scarth

    It does not matter what he has said, we know he is wrong and like when a child fibs we think, well he is only a kid. It is a shame that this clown runs ( ruins!) a country but it is Muslim so is not exactly expecting much of a future.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    When ever I make a comment suggesting that the Authorised version of the Holocaust just might be a tad inaccurate or exaggerated, it’s immediately deleted. You quickly realise who owns and controls the Spectator. Adolph may have been a blackguard, but he sure had the right idea …

  • C Cole

    Reading the introduction to Oborne and Morrison’s book, courtesy of the ebook’s sample chapter, it appears that much of their argument is one of induction – Iran has never throughout its history done X, Y, Z, or any of the other things people are now accusing it of.

    I studied philosophy back in the day, and arguments from induction are incredibly weak, even if you only seek apply them within the sphere of human history.

    I respect Oborne – his book on the political class was an extremely important one – and I’m sure this new book makes lots of good points about Iran, a country most of us will never visit. For that reason it to be welcomed.

    But why would I never visit Iran? Possibly because I wouldn’t want to support a country where they hang homosexuals from cranes.

    For Oborne and Morrison to pretend that the Islamic revolution of 1979 didn’t mark a year zero for Iran, a decisive break with the history of a great civilisation, is sadly naive.

    • http://twitter.com/Hughmanist Hugh

      Obviously, you can’t claim that Iran, or any other country, won’t do this that or the other, solely on the grounds that it hasn’t done it before. Yet, predictions about political events, or anything else, are built on past experience. You can, therefore, point to reasonable probabilities, even if you can’t be certain.

      • C Cole

        In the ordinary course of things, I would accept that. But the people who run Iran cannot really be likened to anyone who ran the country before 1979.

        It is why Mr Murray takes the pains he does over quoting what Iran’s leaders actually say – because since coming to power they have done nothing to merit our giving them the benefit of the doubt. Witness the horrors of the Iran-Iraq War.

        My instinct is to take them at their word. In their own fashion, these are serious people. If you want to appreciate just how delightful some of them are, Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi is hard to beat.

        • http://twitter.com/Hughmanist Hugh

          The basic premise that Iran, with zero nuclear weapons, is a threat to Israel, with 200 nuclear weapons and backed up by America with 5,000, lacks credibility. I’m surprised you haven’t noticed that, despite the fog of rhetoric.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Israel’s got a lot more than that.

          • Adam

            It doesn’t lack credibility – the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction doesn’t apply to people who believe in the coming of the twelfth imam.

            • http://twitter.com/Hughmanist Hugh

              Or the second coming of Jesus Christ? Or that God is Jewish?

              • Adam

                What? No-one thinks G-d is Jewish.
                Shows what you know.

                • http://twitter.com/Hughmanist Hugh

                  “No-one thinks G-d is Jewish.” Adam
                  G-d most certainly is Jewish.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    You know, I could have sworn I posted this yesterday.

    The trouble is that the Holocaust lobby can not explain the operation of the gas chamber.
What happens to the residual hydrogen cyanide? 
Why didn’t the people removing the bodies, or everyone nearby, become ill from residual cyanide exposure? 
What type of fuel, and how much was used to cremate corpses? 
How many tons of bodies could be processed in a day especially considering the inefficient facilities available? Considering German efficiency you’d think the Nazis would have used a conveyer belt and some sort of blast furnace. How could all these tons of bodies be moved? Why are there photographs of old women and children being liberated from Auschwitz by the Russians in January 1945? 
Why can’t mass burial pits and ash sediments be located with ground penetrating radar? 
Why was the plaque at Auschwitz changed from 4.0 to 1.5 to 1.1 million? 
Doesn’t that make the head of the Auschwitz Holocaust Museum a Holocaust denier? This is Holocaust Revisionism. History is a growing tree and requires specific explanations to everything.

  • Al

    Murray is on record as saying of Robert Spencer, a loud denier of the Srebrenica
    genocide: ‘I happen to know Robert Spencer; I respect him; he’s a very
    brilliant scholar and writer’.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/08/after-14-years-of-investigating-events-that-took-place-in-srebrenica-in-1995-i-can-attest-there-was.html

    Interesting. So I guess to Murray genocide denial is fine so long as you are not a Muslim doing it.

    • Jambo25

      It is perfectly possible to dislike Murray and Ahmadnejad simultaneously.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Auschwitz is the flagship of the Holocaust industry, but without the gas chambers, Auschwitz is just another crime against humanity/war crime. So considers this: The gassing would have been easily possible at some 2,000 a time, but with the facilities available in Crematoria II, it would have taken some six days to cremate the bodies. So extrapolate; the math just doesn’t add up, and Spec ever get HMG’s permission I can give Chapter and Verse.

    But don’t hold your breath, Spec being a lackey of the Establishment.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Not widely known, but the Poles built the gas chambers at Auschwitz… in 1949. Replicas of the originals that were destroyed by the Soviets in 1945.
    So in fact nobody died in the gas chambers that are shown to the tourists.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Told you to copy it quickly, didn’t I. Well, here’s some more.
    Spec, when you delete an opinion, however heretical, you deny others the right to hear an opinion, which however off the wall, may contain a grain of truth.
    The trouble is that the Holocaust lobby can not explain the operation of the gas chamber.
 What happens to the residual hydrogen cyanide? 
Why didn’t the people removing the bodies, or everyone nearby, become ill from residual cyanide exposure? 
What type of fuel, and how much was used to cremate corpses?
How many tons of bodies could be processed in a day especially considering the inefficient facilities available? Considering German efficiency you’d think the Nazis would have used a conveyer belt and some sort of blast furnace. How could all these tons of bodies be moved in a confined space? Why are there photographs of old women and children being liberated from Auschwitz by the Russians in January 1945?
Why can’t mass burial pits and ash sediments be located with ground penetrating radar? 
Why was the plaque at Auschwitz changed from 4.0 to 1.5 to 1.1 million?
 Doesn’t that make the head of the Auschwitz Holocaust Museum a Holocaust denier? This is Holocaust Revisionism. History is a growing tree and requires specific explanations to everything.

  • WestTexasRanger

    jewish historians like norman finklestein ‘deny’ the ‘holocaust’ vehemently. what they deny is not that people, of all kinds, were killed. what they deny is the Zionist interpretation of ‘shoah’. the term ‘holocaust’ is a lie and insult in itself. there is no aspect of history which cannot be discussed. if we can call Russia an ‘evil empire’ then Israel certainly qualifies.

    • Augustus

      ” if we can call Russia an ‘evil empire’ then Israel certainly qualifies.”

      Didn’t you know? Now that Israel is 65 she plans to retire and move to Florida.

    • jjjj

      Go on then, ‘discuss’ it. Do you have anything of value to say on the topic? But no cribbing from Stormfront or the Daily Paul

    • alexa44

      You mean Jewish interpretation of Shoah.

    • Adam

      Racist garbage, from someone with a problem with Jews.

      • http://twitter.com/Hughmanist Hugh

        Isn’t it racist to say that Jews are a race?

        • Adam

          ..almost as much as denigrating Jews in the way WestTexasRanger did, with which you seemingly have no problem…

          • http://twitter.com/Hughmanist Hugh

            You talk about ‘racist garbage’. Do you mean that the people being denigrated are a race?

    • Jambo25

      Not just nonsense but “Nonsense on stilts.”. To compare Israel’s actions in either scale or nastiness to those of The Soviet Union simply beggars belief.

    • David Kravitz

      To deny the holocaust is illegal in most civilised countries. And if you wish to question the numbers, visit Yad Vashem in Jerusalem whose records of names is now more than 5 million – and growing.

  • Lynne T

    Ahmedinejad:s would be successor, the currentayor of Tehran has criticised Ahmedinejad “for playing into the Zionists’ hands by engaging in Holocaust denial.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Copy it quick, guys.
    Does the Authorised version of the Holocaust really hang together when exposed to pragmatic analysis? Authorised version being that prisoners (mostly European Jews) sent to the camps by train, and most went straight to the gas chambers. After which the bodies were immediately cremated.
    Keep in mind that Auschwitz is the Holocaust “flagship” and without the gassing/cremation part, all you have is another 20th century mass murder/genocide.
    Limiting to Auschwitz, Crematorium #2
    Official data show that some 500,000 were gassed/cremated between spring 1943 and November 1944. A period of 20 months (max.), 610 days, approx.
    #2 Crematorium had five ovens, three “muffles” per oven (15 muffles). Clearly this was designed for individual cremations in a coffin. Somewhat absurd to imagine that ashes were going to be handed to grieving relatives.
    Assume a body takes an hour to cremate. Sure, you could “double up”, two bodies in each muffle by dispensing with coffins, but it would take twice as long with essentially no fuel saving.
    Bottom line, the cremation process was a serious bottleneck. The Authorised version would work only were it claimed that the bodies were buried in pits. But a fudge like that would discredit the entire story (myth). Provoking the comment; “So what else isn’t entirely Kosher?”
    Do the Math:
    15 bodies cremated per hour (or 30 per two hours)
    360 per 24-hour period
    219,600 cremated in 610 days
    This is assuming absolutely zero downtime (repairs, parts replacement, fuel shortages, shift change over …). Even with German efficiency that’s a bit of a stretch.
    To gas 500,000 at up to 2,000 a time, at least 250 separate gassings would be required. However, even working to full capacity it would take 5.5 days to cremate the bodies. To process the alleged number (500,000) within the stated time frame (610 days) would require a gassing every 2.44 days. But with the facilities available it would have taken 5.5 days to cremate 2,000.You might also want to look at
    the Fred Leuchter Reports. His team took some 40 samples from the walls of the supposed gas chambers, which showed conclusively that there were no traces of
    hydrogen-cyanide compounds. While the walls of a smaller facility used to
    delouse clothes and blankets were saturated in cobalt blue stains. This test
    was repeated some years later by another team of experts with identical
    results.
    Then there are the Auschwitz Death Books finally released by Russia (not covering the full period admittedly) that show some 130,000 deaths.

    Jack, Japan Alps

  • http://www.facebook.com/marian.thomson1 Marian Thomson

    David Lindsay could you please go back to your cave. I have yet to read anything written by you that amounts to nothing more than verbal
    diarrhea

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Copy this quickly:
    Britisher pals, in the interest of historical research, you might want to be aware of
    documents recently unearthed in the British archives relating to the Second
    World War period. Specifically I refer to handwritten notes on a relevant document made in 1944 by Victor Cavendish Bentinck (Lord Bentinck of Portland, 9th duke) as head of the Psychological Warfare Executive, and I quote: “We’ve had a good run for our money with this gas chamber lie. But we really have to be a bit careful, because eventually it’s going to be exposed. So we need to distance ourselves from that story now we’ve set the hare running”.
    Part of British propaganda was to convince anyone who would listen that the Nazis
    were guilty of the most despicable crimes, so it’s hardly surprising that occasional they “egged the pudding”. Seems reasonable to conduct research to decide if the British Psychological Warfare (PWE), “made that bit up”.
    Now consider the ramifications and you’ll begin to grasp why “nobody want to go
    there”.
    Jack, Japan Alps

    • jjjj

      Jackie boy, this was dealt with in the Irving trial and comprehensively refuted. Still bitter that Irving lost? Ha ha.

      • Karla’s Man

        An old troll from the Scotsman and the Times, his first comment (year 2007) with the Telegraph under his first user-name (“Terry Wrist”) was also about David Irving! Can you Adam and Eve it?

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Another pointless contribution from the deranged cyber stalker.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        It comes down to whether you believe the documents or the witnesses. And there were some very dodgy witnesses.

    • Karla’s Man

      “1944 by Victor Cavendish Bentinck (Lord Bentinck of Portland, 9th duke) as head of the … ”

      When did “courtesy titles” become official titles?

      • PurbeckPashmina

        I think you’ll find that sons of peers have often been known as Lord. My late sister in law eschewed her title preferring Ms.

        • Karla’s Man

          Did you actually read my last sentence? When did he suddenly have a “territorial designation” like a Scottish Peer?

          • PurbeckPashmina

            Your snobbery is very second rate. My late sister in law who could trace her ancestry back over 400 years was free and made her choices. She’d join us all in lauging at yourpretence to be British.

            • Karla’s Man

              “Ancestry”, or “pedigree”?

              • PurbeckPashmina

                As ever your insult betrays your own fears about your ill begotten self. And of course no decent Englishman would insult a dead woman in so crass a fashion. Begone, toad.

              • Jackthesmilingblack

                Wrong again, Jock. Hardly a new experience for you.
                Trans-Siberian express strike a chord? You really get off on being humiliated, don’t you?

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    “President Ahmadinejad has denied the Holocaust”So not all bad. Face it the Authorized version of the Holocaust has more holes in it than a Dutch cheese.

    • jjjj

      Jackie boy, when your time comes will you reflect that perhaps you shouldn’t have spent so much of your short life spewing hatred and abuse?

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Doing OK so far.

      • Bob339

        This is your version of reasoned argument is it? Spewing out insults.
        I suppose you will soon resort to the ‘anti-semitic’ mantra. Wearing a bit thin old boy.

        • Adam

          But Bob, you ARE an anti-Semite – as expressed in your Holocaust denial.
          Only anti-Semites are Holocaust deniers.

        • jjjj

          Pot calling kettle black? I’m not here to reason with anti-semites. You and your ilk backed Hitler and you lost. Now crawl back to your cave.

  • John Pitcher

    I suppose someone by now will have mentioned the Aztecs the Mayans and the incas and other South American civilisations; all rubbed out. Nothing new in Ahmadinejad’s aims towards Israel and from his point of view and that of most Arabian countries life would be much more pleasant without Israel in the form it is now. Whether or not he denied the Holocaust and whether Oborne and so on are aware of that is pretty much immaterial isn’t it?

    No one is going to attack Israel even if they have a super new thermo-nuclear device to hand. That attack would be the last thing they ever did wouldn’t it? The Iranians are a lot more controlled than people seem to realise and they do like a good wind up.

    • Mark Turner

      If Israel were attacked with a nuclear weapon and for all intents and puposes wiped out, why do you think it would be the last thing Iran ever did? are you saying that another power would attack Iran with nuclear weapons? or do you think some other power would attack Iran by conventional means? Perhaps those in control of Iran may think its worth calling the bluff of the west and ask if there is an appetite for revenge in the democracies capable of doing anything.

      Israels neighbours have attacked her many times with conventional weapons without success, they must know that to defeat Israel with conventional weapons is impossible and that the only way is nuclear. If Iran pushed the button it would have massive support in that region, any western power attempting to attack Iran would find itself at war with the Muslim world and I dont think there would be an apetite for a ground war, perhaps some air strikes to take out their nuclear facilities and a few Iranian deaths. But for their part, Israel off the map, wait for the fuss to die down,
      mission accomplished.

      • John Pitcher

        I expressed that badly. It would be the last thing the leadership of Iran did.

        Anyone starting a nuclear attack would have to be removed. That removal would be done by everyone. The Muslim world, as you call it, are not united in hatred of Jews they are slightly inclined to agree in their dislike of Israel as it is.

        Saudi and the Gulf States actually hate Iran and would enthusiastically back a Western regime change effort.

        Iran are Shia Muslims and the ME is mostly Sunni. All want a change in Palestine but most realise that Jews have a right to be in the area and have been there for millennia; being Semitic as are all the Arab tribes.

        The hatred of Israel is hyped despite invasions that stopped a long time ago in the face of Israel’s improved (American) defence shields; a shield that would almost certainly deliver a far greater return of nuclear destruction to Iran automatically on attack.

        Why would there be a ground war? Palestine and the main administrative centres of Iran would be largely Ground Zero irradiated wastelands full of people desperately in need of assistance.

      • Jambo25

        I think he means that Israel would retaliate with it’s highly efficient nuclear forces and destroy Iran. Israel has some hundreds of nuclear weapons.

        • Adam

          You know this how?

    • Adam

      No, the region would be nicer if the Arab countries weren’t in the despotic “form they are now.”
      Israelis can rest assured that John Pitcher vouches for the Iranian regime’s rationality. I mean, I’d bet my existence on your baseless assumptions too.
      Ever heard of the 12th imam? If not, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

  • jjjj

    The whole debate was bizarre. Con came out with all the arsenal at his disposal and the other two were shellshocked into submission. It was comical. Two stooges who have written a propaganda piece and who couldn’t even defend their piece properly. Oborne was quite happy for the other stooge to take the flak with his silences. It was so pathetic that one wonders if this was a conspiracy to make the Regime defenders to look inept.

    You know when people are in trouble when they desperately wheel out ‘The Leveretts’ another couple of wannabee Walt and Mearsheimers.

  • Bert3000

    Oh dear. UKIP will have to sack him as a candidate.

  • Curnonsky

    Peter Oborne has long striven to keep his rather malodorous private opinions from undermining his comfortable perch at the Telegraph.

  • thanksdellingpole

    Oborne did a piece on the Israel Lobby groups both here and in America, they’re calculating and well funded, it’s no wonder these rumours of Ahmadinejad are pedalled.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfw5aLYiq5k

    • Adam

      You mean Oborne did a highly partisan hatchet job, whilst ignoring the well funded Arab lobby and propaganda machine.

      • thanksdellingpole

        It was still insightful, I’ve not seen anybody else attempt it, but I know what you mean on the hush hush nature of the MSM on Arabs, still, they’ll get theirs.

  • Jabez Foodbotham

    I suppose the Holocaust didn’t happen for anyone except those directly involved in the events to which it it now gives a collective name until about 1967. Before that there had been the widespread knowledge that among their many crimes the Nazis had tried to systematically exterminate the Jews of Europe and had succeeded in killing several million of them in wicked circumstances.
    Since then there has been a relentless effort, almost worldwide, to rekindle public awareness of this historical episode and to keep it as a centre of attention through media coverage, public education, and foundation of memorials, museums, academic institutes, study programmes, commemoration days and events, and so on. One can only ask in the face of this enormous effort, cui bono?

    The Holocaust has been elevated to mythic status. As Ahmadinejad apparently pointed out and Murray confirms here, anyone who denies that myth will come under sustained fire. It seems hardly necessary to point out that myths are not necessarily based on untruths and it is possible to attack the nature and use made of a myth without impugning the veracity of its origins. But to accuse someone of being a ‘Holocaust denier’, in the West at least, is to suggest that their logic is akin to that of a Flat Earther and their morality that of a baby eater.

    Ahmadinejad is a politician, and not a particularly savoury one at that, but it seems a bit simplistic to judge him as utterly beyond the pale on the basis of his statements reported here.

    • mightymark

      “The Holocaust has been elevated to mythic status.”

      Fascinating – so now we are asked to believe that Ahmadinejad is a scholar of Barthes? Is there no expedient that the apologists will not exploit to excuse this man?

      And just to be clear – any criticism that holocaust deniers are subject to is not because of the holocaust’s “mythic” status but because they – the deniers – are liars with an ugly agenda.

      • Jabez Foodbotham

        I may be an offensive twerp according to some, but I can take schoolboy abuse. I do object to being called an Ahmadinejad apologist.

        My point was rather that one can take issue with the mythic exploitation of the Final Solution without denying that it took place. It is Murray’s triumphalist Gotcha seeking to create a categorical denial and thus a touchstone of villainy out of Ahmadinejad’s woolly speechifying that I don’t buy.

        • mightymark

          If Ahmedinejad’s speechifying were merely “wooly” he has had ample opportunity to clarify it. In a global news age he can not but know the controversy that surrounds his words so must be assumed at least to have no problem with being understood to be a holocaust denier.

          That seems, to me at least, so obvious that I can not see why anyone who argues on his behalf can be other than (at a minimum) an apologist.

          • Jabez Foodbotham

            I can’t claim to read his mind, but it seems at least likely that he might assume that no matter what he says, a negative interpretation will be put on it by the usual suspects, so why be maneuvered into going down the road of defensive clarifications that you seem to expect.
            You inhabit a real black and white world if you believe that anyone who argues a point that may seem to favour a third party makes them automatically an apologist for that party.

            • mightymark

              “I can’t claim to read his mind,”

              I think you should perhaps have stopped there – while the going was good!

        • Jambo25

          What do you mean by “mythic exploitation”. More nonsense. either the Shoah took place or it didn’t. The overwhelming view of qualified historians is that it took place and about 6,000,000 Jews died in it plus some millions of others.

          • Jabez Foodbotham

            “the Nazis had tried to systematically exterminate the Jews of Europe and had succeeded in killing several million of them in wicked circumstances.”

            I guess that means I believe it took place.

            • Jackthesmilingblack

              The number of Jews in Europe before and after WWII makes interesting reading.

    • Adam

      “Mythic status”? Really?
      Oh bugger off, you offensive twerp.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Wouldn’t you feel more at home on the Catholic Daily Telegraph?

    • victor67

      The holocaust has certainly been politicized by Israel and their lobby in DC to justify their aggression against the Palestinians and the other arab states.
      In 1982 before Israel launched its invasion of Lebanon to “wipe the PLO of the map” Shamir said it either this or Treblinka.

      • Adam

        Racist garbage. “Their lobby”? You mean Jews?

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        How many UN Resolutions has Israel ignored? Must be over 100 by now.

  • http://twitter.com/JosephDPower Joseph Power

    A funny coincidence: I rebuked Oborne and Morrison’s joint article in the Telegraph over on The Commentator, only to see that Douglas has done the same for their book in the Speccy, on the same day, no less. Bloody nice to see Iranian apologists getting exposed on all fronts.

  • Guest

    A funny coincidence: I rebuked Osborne and Morrison’s joint article in the Telegraph over on The Commentator, only to see that Douglas has done the same for their book in the Speccy, on the same day, no less. Bloody nice to see Iranian apologists getting exposed on all fronts.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      See you’ve got Copy and Paste sussed.

  • laurence

    Our little simian friend appears to have a rather crude baby monitor stuck in his ear. Perhaps this is the source of his ‘thoughts’? Is George Galloway at the other end?

  • Roland Brown

    Attempts to paper over Iranian excesses usually backfire. A few years back, some objected that Ahmadinejad had been quoted saying that Israel should be “wiped off the map,” when his remark was closer to “eliminated from the pages of history.” The latter, truer translation, of course, was more sinister, suggesting an Orwellian future in which no one would know Israel had existed.

    • David Lindsay

      That’s not “Orwellian”. It happens all the time. Including to things and places far larger and longer-lasting than the Zionist experiment.

      • Roland Brown

        Name one.

        • David Lindsay

          The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.

          • no name

            Ani was another. The Turks ordered it “wiped from the face of the earth”.

            • David Lindsay

              Khazaria, there’s another one. Hardly anyone has ever heard of it.

              Even the Roman and Byzantine Empires, in the sense that hardly anyone knows that Christian sovereignty is the norm throughout the territory historically known as Syria, and including the Holy Land as well as present-day Jordan. Syria and Lebanon.

              It has been Roman, Byzantine, Crusader, and then half-British and half-French. When the Muslims conquered Jerusalem, it was an entirely Christian city and had been for centuries.

              But who in the West knows that? About as many as know of the reserved Christian representation in the Parliaments of Iran, Syria and Lebanon (where the President and half the MPs have to be Christians), as well as on the Palestinian Authority, together with the Christian-majority provinces and the Christian festivals as public holidays in Syria.

              Consider, in this of all weeks, the Tomb of Saint George at his birthplace, which is now known as Lod and which is the location of Israel’s principal airport, has become a shadow of its former self.

              It was once a major focus of unity between Christians and Muslims in devotion to the Patron Saint of Palestine, Lebanon and Egypt before, and as much as, the Patron Saint of England.

              Three quarters of those who practised that devotion were violently expelled in 1948. Eliminated from the pages of history, indeed.

              • Roland Brown

                The entities you mention have been wiped from maps, not from history.

                • David Lindsay

                  Really? How many people have ever heard of them? There is always an academic specialist somewhere who has heard of anything, but I hadn’t thought that that was what we were discussing.

                • Roland Brown

                  History is no synonym for common knowledge.

                • David Lindsay

                  There is a grey area, though. Most Spectator readers, for example, ought to know these things. But it is amazing, and yet sadly not, how many of them don’t. And not just readers, either.

                • Adam

                  How is any of what you write relevant to Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust denial?

                • David Lindsay

                  How would Ahmadinejad’s “Holocaust denial” (which he has never uttered) be relevant to anything but itself?

                  This week’s magazine features both Peter Oborne and John Laughland. But on the blogs, we still have to put up with Douglas Murray. And with the foreign policy views of the otherwise rather good Nick Cohen. It is like stepping back in time.

                • Lynne T

                  What an utter crackpot you are. Ahmedinejad sponsored a festival of Holocaust denial cartoons ostensibly to prove that the West doesn’t really uphold freedom of speech bit also to promote the idea that it was a grossly exaggerated event used to blackmail the world into accepting a Jewish state on part of its ancient territory.

                • David Lindsay

                  It’s Never-Ending Naughties Night on here, isn’t it? Perhaps you have just been asleep since the Bush-Blair heyday. The rest of us have not been. Not at all.

                • jjjj

                  And, perchance, what is the relevance of your comment to what Lynne T has written?

                • David Lindsay

                  If you have to ask, then there is no point telling you.

                  “Perchance,” indeed! I ask you!

                • jjjj

                  Just as I thought. Unable to answer questions. Lynne T called you out on your inane defence of Ahmadinejad and you respond by deflecting.

                • David Lindsay

                  Point proved. Give it up. The Noughties are over. Bush and Blair are no more. Silly shills like Murray and NeoCon Coughlin are no longer of any interest. Even the Editor of this august organ acknowledges that with his choice of contributors to the venerable print edition this week.

                • jjjj

                  Once again, was your post of 4 hours ago relevant to Lynne T’s response to the first paragraph of your post immediately above her’s, in which you defend Ahmadinejad?

                • jjjj

                  Lol! how pathetic you are voting down my comments. It’s pretty obvious its you, David.

                • Adam

                  He IS on drugs…

                • Adam

                  Are you on drugs Lindsay?

                • Adam

                  Vacuous nonsense. Words saying nothing…

                • Jambo25

                  I entirely agree Adam.

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  Just examine the number of UN Resolutions Israel has ignored. Must be over 100 by now.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  ” Ahmedinejad sponsored a festival of Holocaust denial cartoons”

                  Wrong. They were cartoons irreverantly depicting the Holocaust, which he did just afte rthe publishing of anti Islam cartoons in Denmark. Obviously what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander in your opinion.

                • jjjj

                  Plum/Irving/Arminius, you questioned on another thread whether Dreyfuss was innocent or not. You may have credibility with Lindsay and your Stormfront friends but with no one else.

                • Jambo25

                  Cartoons mocking the mass murder of millions of people (Jewish and Gentile) is not he same as mocking some people’s religion. As a believing Christian, I wouldn’t see mockery of my beliefs as having the same shock value as mocking the mass murder of a people. I certainly wouldn’t see mocking my religious beliefs as being an excuse for riot, mayhem and murder. Fairly large numbers of Muslims semm to.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  ” I certainly wouldn’t see mocking my religious beliefs as being an “excuse for riot, mayhem and murder.

                  Murder? How many have been murdered as a result of the cartoons?

                  As for mayhem , I suppose you mean demonstrations against.

                  How about these IDF Tshirts:

                  http://news.sky.com/story/678761/israeli-army-t-shirts-mock-gaza-

                • Jambo25

                  Well, in the aftermath of the cartoons it’s estimated that just under 200 people died as the result of murders and various other disorders. there were also attacks on diplomatic property and attempts by the Organisation of the Islamic Conference to force through conventions which would have pretty much outlawed any criticism of Islam.

                  You also have to take into account other things, however. The Rushdie affair and it’s aftermath. The killing of Theo Van Gogh and threats to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Riots over supposed insults to the Koran and all the other things the Allah worshipping scamps get up to.

                  As for the IDF T shirts. They are in very bad taste but I don’t remember Jews launching anti-Islamic demos because of them.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Well, in the aftermath of the cartoons it’s estimated that just under 200 people died”

                  Estimated by who? David Kravitz?

                  “They are in very bad taste but I don’t remember Jews launching anti-Islamic demos because of them.”

                  They were produced by Jews. Blaming moslems for their production would be a bit too much even for the zionist spin machine. Though I suppose seeing as you’ve had a go

                • Jambo25

                  Estimated by various media organisations and governments. As for the Israelis and wider Jewish population. They have to put up with a lot but I don’t notice many violent demonstrations by them.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Estimated by various media organisations and governments.”

                  Don’t suppose you could link to one of those various media organisations to support your claim, could you?

                • Adam

                  It’s called Google – try it.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “It’s called Google – try it.”

                  Done that – the only thing that comes up is a wiki page that makes the claim. Jambo claimed ‘various media oranisations’ had reported that there have been over 200 deaths as a result. The only media reports are of anti-cartoon demonstrators being shot.

                  If Jambo can’t substantiate his claim, I perfectly understand why.

                • Adam

                  Well said Jambo 25.

                • Adam

                  Plum, a cursory bit of research would highlight how utterly clueless you are on the subject. Jambo 25 has simply presented facts.

                • David Kravitz

                  “Estimated by who? David Kravitz?”
                  Reference, moron?

                • Adam

                  No they weren’t produced by Jews, you hateful individual.

                • Bob339

                  How could anyone not hate jews?

                • Bob339

                  There is no truth in the claim that millions died. None whatsoever.

                • jjjj

                  I’ve seen some of your other ‘888’ posts on Disqus. You are mentally ill. Do get help, not that I care what happens to you mind, but it would be a waste of NHS money to treat you when your symptoms become incurable.

                • David Kravitz

                  You have to remember when replying to Plum that he was bounced on his head whilst very young and he never been the same since. He has delusions that he is a professor but cannot spell the word and spends his days trawling the Internet for antisemitic sites that he can then quote here and in daily newspapers as “facts”.

                  He is also totally oblivious of the very large number of negative votes he attracts here, far more than any other contributor. He asks questions demanding answers but not vice versa. Quick to pick up others making spelling and grammatical errors, but oblivious of his own.

                  I doubt, very much, that he is a WASP. His bibles appear to be Jew Watch and Stormfront.

                • Adam

                  …because obviously the Jews were responsible for the Danish cartoons…
                  You really are beyond all hope of decency, Plum. How you defend such garbage is reprehensible.

                • Adam

                  Lindsay, denying Holocaust denial, when it is staring you in the face, is utterly disgraceful. As Douglas has shown in the post above, Ahmadinejad has made it clear, repeatedly if you bother to look, that he denies and denigrates the Holocaust.
                  You should be thoroughly ashamed.

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  You can’t “deny” the Holocaust, but there is a case for saying the Authorised version is exaggerated.

                • David Lindsay

                  No, you should be, for obviously having read nothing on the subject in the last five years. No one believes this rubbish anymore. And even if it were true, what political difference would it make?

                  Thank God for the print edition of The Spectator. Thank God for that of the Daily Telegraph, in that it gives a platform to Peter Oborne. Thank God for the Mail titles: Peter Hitchens, Peter McKay, Andrew Alexander, occasional contributors such as John Laughland, Geoffrey Wheatcroft and Mark Almond.

                  And thank God that the GOP might nominate Rand Paul. Him versus Hillary Clinton? No contest. But you’d be for Hillary, presumably. As, presumably, would Douglas Murray. Oh, what fun.

                • David Kravitz

                  The timings on Lindsay’s postings make very interesting reading and suggest he either cannot sleep or that he is resident far to the west of the UK. Why, then, is he posting to the Spectator?

                • Adam

                  Lindsay, the man presides over weekly chants of “Death to Israel” by hysterical masses which he whips up. He parades missiles through Tehran with the words “Death to Israel” pained on the side. He offers prizes for Holocaust cartoons (winner, Anne Frank in bed with Hitler). He invites such luminaries as the Ku Klux Klan to Holocaust denial conferences.
                  That this means nothing to you is clear, but let me be clear – Jews will NEVER lie down for the likes of you again. When someone says they’re going to kill the Jews, the Jews are not only entitiled to take them at their word, they are duty bound to do so.
                  If you don’t like it, choke on it.
                  As I said, you should be thoroughly ashamed.

                • http://twitter.com/Hitchslap_82 Andy M

                  “Put up with Douglas Murray”? Hardly. He is one of the only voices of reason on this topic.

                • Jambo25

                  Well, I’ve heard of them. I’ve also heard of the large scale Christian exodus from the islamic Mid-East over the past 50 or 60 years. I’ve also heard of the liquidation of the non-Arab communities, in the Levant, since WW2. What happened to Alexandria’s Greeks? What happened to the numerous Jewish communities in the Maghreb and Levant?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “The entities you mention have been wiped from maps, not from history.”

                  The Ashkenazi would love to see Khazaria wiped from both maps and history considering that it is from there that they originate. Sephardic Jews are the true semitic tribe. They moved into Spain, North Africa, Germany, Portugal, Italy and they held centre stage until the middle of the 18th century when the Talmudic Ashkenazi started to take control through their base in Poland.

                  By the begining of the 20th Century the Sephardic Jews were well integrated into the society of the nations they lived in. The ghetto loving Ashkenazi didn’t like that as they were trying to push for Palestine as a Jewish homeland and found stiff resistance from the Sephardic Jews. The majority of Jews who died in the holocaust were Sephardic and along with them died the resistance to zionism.

                  Whatever one may make of President Ahmadinejad’s comment the fact is somone has been lying about certain aspects of it.

                  Interestingly The Talmud actually prophesies that the return to Israel will happen after 6 million have died.

                • David Kravitz

                  “The majority of Jews who died in the holocaust were Sephardic”
                  No they were not.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  Oh yes they were

                • Adam

                  Plum, you are an offensive moron.

                • David Kravitz

                  “The Talmud actually prophesies that the return to Israel will happen after 6 million have died.”

                  Using Google reveals only antisemitic sites that suggest this. A Google search of the Talmud reveals no reference. But the following reference is a list of prophecies over thousands of years. You will find one Talmud reference.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Using Google reveals only antisemitic sites that suggest this.”

                  You need to learn how to use it.

                  Because in the real world, not the delusional ghetto you live in, – Using Google takes you to a book by Rabbi Benjamin Blech called the Secrets of Hebrew Words. Pg.5-6. To name but one who mentions it.

                • Adam

                  Plum is pparently a Talmudic expert because he uses Google.
                  Pathetic.

                • Adam

                  Plum, don’t presume you know anything about the Talmud – or anything else for that matter.

                • Adam

                  No they weren’t mostly Sephardic, you utter twerp. Nor were Sephardic Jews well integrated into the societies in which they lived – societies which imposed dhimmi apartheid on them.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Nor were Sephardic Jews well integrated into the societies in which they lived ”

                  So why were German, British and American Jews so against Zionism prior to WWII?

                  Gabriel Rieser told the Zionist-revolutionaries from Russia “We did not immigrate here, we were born here, and because we were born here, we lay no claim to a home anywhere else; we are either Germans or else we are homeless.”

                • Adam

                  They aren’t Sephardi Jews.
                  Do you have ANY idea what you’re talking about?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  Don’t I? Perhaps you can help me.

                  Does zionism encourage assimilation of jews or does it encourage ghetto loving tribalism?

                • Adam

                  Plum, as you are an apologist for Holocaust denying conferences and anti-Semitic cartoons, I don’t expect much from you – but you really do need to learn about Sephardi Jews – you appear to be under several misapprehensions.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Plum, as you are an apologist for Holocaust denying conferences and anti-Semitic cartoons,”

                  Interesting response to the question I asked you. Don’t you want to answer it?

                  Does zionism encourage assimilation of jews or does it encourage ghetto loving tribalism?

                • Adam

                  Zionism isn’t about “encouraging” anything, other than the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people.
                  Now here’s one for you –
                  Does idiocy encourage Jew hatred and lauding Holocaust denial – as in your case?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Zionism isn’t about “encouraging” anything, other than the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people.”

                  So zionism doesn’t encourage emancipation of jews but it does encourage them live together in a ghetto.

                • Adam

                  No – for the first time they aren’t in the ghetto, because they are now a free people in their own land. Live with it Plum – I know it’s hard for someone who thinks Jews should indeed be in the ghetto.
                  Do you think every nation state is a ghetto?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  ” for the first time they aren’t in the ghetto, ”

                  Obviously you don’t understand the meaning of the word ‘ghetto’.

                  From Merriam-webster:

                  1: a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live

                  2

                  : a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure

                • David Kravitz

                  Ghetto is actually a Venetian word and had you ever been to Venice you would know that the Ghetto was an area of that city (then a sovereign state) where Jews lived.
                  Plum the fount of all knowledge.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  ” Ghetto was an area of that city (then a sovereign state) ”

                  Sort of like a fifth column?

                  Anyway, if you think that mirriam webster’s definitions are wrong, you should get in touch with them.

                • Adam

                  So Jews are a fifth column now?
                  Oh bugger off.

                • David Kravitz

                  First of all its Merriam, not Mirriam and, secondly, it defines ghetto as “Origin of GHETTO: Italian, from Venetian dialect ghèto island where Jews were forced to live, literally, foundry (located on the island), from ghetàr to cast, from Latin jactare to throw.
                  That is why Jews now define the Holocaust as Shoah because the word was hijacked to cover other massacres.

                • Adam

                  …neither of which apply to Israel. So your point is?
                  Plum, I don’t normally indulge cheerleaders of the Iranian despot, and especially not those who laud Holocaust denial, as you have, but your lies cannot go unchallenged.

    • ProffessorPlum

      ” “eliminated from the pages of history.” The latter, truer translation, of course, was more sinister, suggesting an Orwellian future in which no one would know Israel had existed.”

      As is happening to Palestinians, which no doubt you don’t find at all sinister.

      • Adam

        Yes, they are being removed so quickly that they continue to grow and grow, bith in Israel as Israeli citizens and in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.
        Lies Plum.

        • ProffessorPlum

          “Yes, they are being removed so quickly that they continue to grow and grow,”

          Their land is being removed from the pages of history.

          • Adam

            You mean the land which was never theirs?

  • David Lindsay

    Even if this funny little Bush-Blair period piece were correct, which it is not, then it would still have nothing to do with the present geopolitical situation.

    Murray, Coughlin and the rest of them were all in favour of the frank and undisputed Holocaust denier Franjo Tudjman of Croatia, and of the veteran Holocaust perpetrator Alijia Izetbegovic of Bosnia.

    • sonic

      What about it is not correct?

      And you are Mehdi Hassan and I claim my 5 NIS.

      • David Lindsay

        Any of it. And I’m surprised that it is still being published now. It is, as I said,a funny little Bush-Blair period piece. But then, even as an example of the type, Murray never really was any good.

        • Hugh

          Can you explain how it is all incorrect?

          • jjjj

            Please don’t encourage Lindsay to explain anything. The windbag can’t explain things to himself.

          • David Lindsay

            The answer to that non-question is No by definition.

            • Adam

              Non-question? You mean non-answer, surely.

              • David Lindsay

                No. By definition.

                • Adam

                  Earth calling Lindsay…do you understand the concept of question and answer?

                • David Lindsay

                  You people are not interested in answers. If you were, then you would ask proper questions. You cannot cope with anyone who does automatically agree with you out of fear. But you are not in America here. And even there, those days are gone.

                • Adam

                  I’m not in America here either.
                  “You people”? Charming.

Close
Can't find your Web ID? Click here