Coffee House

About that UKIP tax policy…

26 April 2013

9:25 AM

26 April 2013

9:25 AM

Nigel Farage was on Question Time again last night. This was hardly unusual, but what was interesting was that the UKIP leader U-turned on one of his flagship policies.

When he spoke at a press lunch on Tuesday, Farage accepted that UKIP’s flat tax policy was ‘incomplete’, but that UKIP’s aspiration was to have taxes as low as possible. Last night, asked whether he still wanted a flat tax, he said:

‘It was in 2010, but it isn’t now, and don’t tell me about manifestos: you haven’t even got one!’

Simon Hughes pressed him on what his tax policy was, to which he replied:

‘We will have no tax on the minimum wage and a mass simplification of the tax policy, with a lower rate. We will abolish National Insurance, roll it into tax because all it is is tax anyway.’

He added that higher earners would pay ’40 per cent or something like that’, adding:

‘Every party changes their policies between general elections… Just because we stood under a different leader in a different general election with a policy of 31 per cent, doesn’t mean that’ll be our policy next time round: it won’t.’

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Farage’s selling point for lunches, hustings and the many, many broadcast appearances he is invited to make is that he brings colour to a world of grey suits. He’s funny, he’s eloquent, and he likes to emphasise his branding as someone who says what other politicians daren’t say, whether it be about immigration or lap-dancing clubs. But as I explained earlier this week, this comes at the expense of policies, because he doesn’t really need many of those to get the sketchwriters and reporters looking for a colour piece along to his events.

Of course, any simplification of the tax system would be welcome: this morning’s Today programme debate with Margaret Hodge about tax accountants seeking more loopholes to exploit underlined that.

The panel also, inevitably, discussed the effects of the end of transitional controls on Bulgarian and Romanian migrants. Farage came under fire from his fellow guest Natalie Bennett, leader of the Green Party, for his rhetoric on immigration. When he had his chance to have a say, Farage made a characteristically robust and eloquent defence of his position, followed by Luciana Berger, who deployed what appears to be the new Labour line to take on immigration, which is to say it’s OK to be worried about it, but not much beyond that. She said:

‘We have a proud heritage of immigration in this country, but it’s not wrong to address people’s very serious concerns about immigration: I hear it all the time. We need to look at the facts and the challenge is that we don’t actually have the facts from this government. We don’t know how many people might come here because we don’t have the facts from this government. We don’t know how many people might come here because we don’t have figures from government and that obviously makes this conversation incredibly challenging.’

Berger’s answer points to one of UKIP’s key campaigning strategies: it trades on uncertainty. Two different select committees took evidence on migration statistics this week: the Home Affairs Select Committee heard from the Bulgarian and Romanian ambassadors, who predicted between 8,000 and 10,000 Bulgarians and between 15,000 and 25,000 Romanians would come to Britain in 2014.

The following day, the Public Administration Select Committee took a rather dispiriting tranche of evidence on just how unreliable these figures are. Committee chair Bernard Jenkin told Dr Scott Blinder, director of the Migration Observatory, Cllr Philippa Roe from Westminster Council and Professor John Salt from the Migration Research Unit that the picture they had painted was ‘bleak’, with all arguing that not only was it very difficult to have faith in statistics on who was arriving, and who was leaving, but it was even more difficult to predict who might arrive. Salt told the MPs on the Committee that ‘I would be extremely surprised if there isn’t a file somewhere which has got some numbers in it’, but even if such a file became public, it would be difficult for voters worried about immigration to know which number to trust, given there are so many circulating. And UKIP can feed on that uncertainty, in the same way as it feeds on uncertainty over greenfield development, or uncertainty over whether David Cameron really will make good his promise on an EU referendum.

But perhaps other political parties will see UKIP’s own uncertainty over policies and feed on that, too. The local and European elections will be bruising because they don’t focus the mind on tax policies, but in 2015, Farage’s opponents will want to use any dithering as a sign he’s better kept as a good lunch guest in Westminster.

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Show comments
  • boisgolf

    Wasn’t Sajid David good?
    He is one to watch.

    • thanksdellingpole

      Tory bum-lick.

  • John_Page

    There’s good and bad in this post. UKIP doesn’t need detailed policies yet, but it’s right on immigration

    http://thepurplescorpion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/ukip-doesnt-need-detailed-policies-yet.html

    • thanksdellingpole

      It’s touching the issue, but not dealing with it.

      Turning off the tap is one thing, but mopping up the mess is quite another.

  • styants64

    Local elections comming up UKIP are doing well in the polls so this week there are spurious criticisms about their candidates and of UKIPS policy’s , the Lib,Lab,Con, merchants are running scared and so the establishment press are finding ways to put the voters off answer? Vote UKIP.

  • Makroon

    I would love UKIP to take a council. Then we could see what they are about (and it might keep Nige out of the pub, but probably not).
    Based on their record in the EU parliament, I suppose we would see epic levels of absenteeism, high levels of expense fiddling (now, where have we heard that before ?), lots of jollies, hilarious insults of the other parties in the council chamber, and lots of media fun and games. The council jobsworths and bureaucrats would probably ask for extended sick leave after a few weeks.
    Just hope it’s nowhere around here.

  • JohannasbourgCalls

    UKIP are a party of economics, it’ll take more than them to deal with immigration. But if you want to even begin to understand where we can go to get this problem sorted out then you need to understand that English culture is quite specific, much like any other.

    Now we all like diversity, it’s the spice of life, but how can there be any diversity if we’re all the same, that is multiculturalism. In order to preserve English culture, Scottish and others, we need to respect all others.

    The National Culturalist movement respects all cultures but specifies that they are different and different for a reason, if you’d like learn more about how to deal with immigration in England especially then visit: http://www.nationalculturists.org/about

  • johnofpar

    How on earth do people manage listen to the Egyptian itinerant Margaret Oppenheimer opine on tax avoidance with a straight face?

  • Smithersjones2013

    Oh dear this focussing on the uncertainty of policies is truly infantile politics. If these polticians and associated Freakshow hanger’s-on want certainty they should consult Mystic Meg (and given the Governments economic projections it seems she’s been on the payroll for a decade or more) for all the good that it will do.

    What happened to ‘Sharing the proceeds of growth’ (yep exactly what growth)? What happened to the ‘sunlit uplands’ (now we are dragging along the bottom of the deep blue economic sea)? what happened to the Big Society. What happened to ‘no plans to raise VAT’ (not to mention the mealy mouthed Cast Iron guarantee)?

    It really is purile demanding chapter and verse on UKIP’s policies when Labour don’t have any and the Tories and Libdems seem to make them up on the spot using the excuse of pragmatism. In fact this government has done so many u-turns it surprising it is not permanently dazed (and given its often hysterical behaviour perhaps it is)

    Voters learnt long ago that detailed policies whilst not in government are meaningless. its what is delivered that matters. All opposition parties can sensibly do is outline where they want to get to (their vision) and how in broad terms they would get there. That tells voters whether they are heading in the right direction (in individuals voters opinions) or not.

    It would be great if we could all crystal ball gaze and see the future but like many of the common political ploys of the ruling political classes it is an utterly false and dishonest ploy.

    Truly Eurosceptic, small government, minimising taxation, encouraging enterpise and keeping energy prices as low as possible, immigration sceptic, tough on crime, strong on true democracy, strong on real devolution and localism etc etc is the message UKIP provide. They are the only party providing that message.

    Establishment stooges can complacently and unitelligently sneer as much as they like (just as Brown sneered at the lack of detail of Tory plans 5 years ago and Cameron will no doubt sneer at every opponent this time around) about the inconsistencies of UKIP’s policies but they will be no more inconsistent than any of the other parties. They will however be the only party offering an alternative to the dysfunctional poltical consensus that has laid this country so low over the last 20 years.

    So its UKIP or more of the same.

  • Wessex Man

    Having gone through the comments very few actually comment on the article. It appears to me that yet again Isabel Hardman is giving Farage a battering because of who he is rather that what he’s saying.

    What are the Tory, Labour and Lib/Dems tax targets in their 2015 manifesto? oh sorry they haven’t got anywhere near preparing their usual load of lies and won’t until 2015. Yet sge’s trying yet again to paint UKIP as the villains yet again.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Well, the Londonistan bubble denizens fear UKIP, so you have to forgive the poor Speccie teenager’s terrified shrieking about brother Nige.

      All reactionaries act this way, when they see change coming.

  • HookesLaw

    Rolling NI into the tax system will effectively put up tax for the self employed. Does Farage explain how that would work.

    I am sure everyone wants taxes as low as possible, I know I do, but what Farage will not tell us is who he will throw out of work and what services he will cut to to achieve it.
    Tax is a less pressing issue for pensioners and services are a big issue, does UKIPO explain how they square this circle?

    Low tax is no different an aspiration for the Conservative party but voting for Farage (lets forget ‘UKIP’ shall we because there is no such thing – we simply have Farage doing his song and dance act) will simply give us high tax and spend socialism.

    • Russell

      NI is a very pressing issue for relatively low income pensioners as they would see an immediate increase in tax they currently pay of 12.5% if NI was rolled into tax as they don’t pay NIC when ceasing employment!

      • HookesLaw

        Exactly. And the notion of ‘low tax’ is of little interest to most pensioners. What is of interest is the big increase in tax thresholds.
        So does Farage and his supporters say anything about how this policy would impact on pensioners – do any of the cheering pensioner UKIPers think about it.

        The problems of merging NI with tax is why we hear very little about how in might work from mainstream parties.

        • Russell

          I will be a cheering pensioner in the very near future (this year), and support UKIP. This is certainly a question I shall be putting to UKIP, but I am sure that they can find a very easy solution to this (an appropriate lowering of tax to negate the NIC incorporation for pensioners/retirees), so don’t see this as a big problem.

          • MichtyMe

            What is the justification of taxing idle people less than those working and with a similar income?

            • Russell

              Possibly the fact that like me they have been paying tax and NIC all their working lives like me (44years) and once on relatively small pensions deserve at least some reward for their contributions to the treasury, unlike the many legal and illegal immigrants and people living a life on benefits.

              • MichtyMe

                But your reward of your 44 years is the “relatively small pension”.

                • Russell

                  I have 3 relatively small pensions which added to my state pension when it comes will enable me to have a reasonable retirement as my house is paid off (no mortgage) and no rent to pay!

                • thanksdellingpole

                  Every time they print your money is diluted, don’t forget also that you’re taxed on withdrawals!

                • fubarroso

                  If you are talking about the state pension in no way can it be regarded as “a reward”. It is some of the money stolen from me and my employers throughout my working life being returned to us. Had that money not been taken from us I would have invested it and now be enjoying a much higher return.

                • thanksdellingpole

                  Exactly, even when you do withdraw a pension it’s taxed, while also having been diluted thanks to money printing.

                  BitCoin and precious metals are the sensible mans way to a bright retirement.

            • Smithersjones2013

              FIrstly those ‘idle’ people will have generally had to work hard in the first place to get their pensions and moreover the less they are taxed the more they can spend in the economy hopefully boosting growth (given all attempt by goverment so far have abysmally failed to the point where government is borrowing hand over fist just to stop from sinking altogether).

            • fubarroso

              “Idle”? Bloody cheek! I worked full time for 44 years and had by pockets picked monthly by the HMRC bandits. I think I have earned a rest now!

        • Smithersjones2013

          Rolling NI into the tax system will effectively put up tax for the self employed.

          Of course when Osborne increased Capital Gains Tax that didn’t hit the incomes of small business and entreprenuers at all now did it (those who supplement their incomes with share dividends)?

          I believe Farage wants the income tax threshold raised to £13k. Raising the threshold has been UKIP policy since 2006 (it was roughly £11.5k in UKIP’s 2010 manifesto) and if anything the Libdems borrowed the UKIP policy,watered it down and disingenuously claimed it for their own.

        • fubarroso

          Simplest way would be to re-classify pension income as different from earned income. That way it could work toward a flat tax without unduly impacting pensioners.

  • allymax bruce

    I too thought Nigel Farage came across well; obviously the ‘establishment politicians’ don’t like competition!
    All the distraction & hogwash from Labour, Conservative, Lib-Dem, AND that excrutiating Green Natalie Bennett, couldn’t take-away the truth that Nigel was speaking. I sometimes wonder how stupid these establishment politicians think we are!
    Labour opened the gates of this United Kingdom, ruined Scotland, and destroyed the UK. Labour policies; mass immigration leading to open-door immigration, deregulation leading to destruction of economy, and over-bureacratising the NHS leading to shortage of front-line nurses. What ever you do, don’t vote Labour; they will completely ruin England the next time they get in. Besides, Labour are at war with themsleves now; Ed Miliband verses the unions; looks like the unions need to start their own National Labour Party! That would completely wipe out Bliar’s legacy!

    • Colonel Mustard

      The problem is that in a GE a UKIP vote could well mean in effect a Labour vote.

      • allymax bruce

        Hi Col’, that’s the ‘perceived’ wisdom. However, UKIP is fundamentally a local elections vote, so look out for them doing well next week, but not yet a G.E. vote. Maybe a G.E. ‘protest vote’, of which, will be minor, but the UKIP majority vote ‘should’ transfer to The Conservatives at the G.E.

        • fubarroso

          I think I am probably a typical of those once loyal Conservatives who after 40 years of ever closer integration into the EU have finally given up on them. I voted UKIP in the last general election and will do so again. I will not vote Tory again until I am sure that they have, not just a Eurosceptic leadership, but one that states that they will invoke Article 50 of the Treaty of the European Union (TEU) in their manifesto. Even then I’m not sure that I would actually trust them to carry it out.

          • Russell

            Snap.

            • Wessex Man

              Snap.

          • allymax bruce

            Super sudonym!
            Yes, i know how you feel; and i am beginning to think that way myself. However, because time is ‘more’ against Ed Miliband, tan it is against david cameron, I presume UKIP voters would feel their vote to be worth more voting for the Conservatives.

            • fubarroso

              In all honesty I do not think I can bring myself to vote for the Conservatives at the next GE. Certainly not with Cameron as leader and, as I commented earlier, probably not unless there is a manifesto pledge (whatever that’s worth) to invoke Art. 50.

              The problem is if UKIP do well in the locals next week, win or come a close second in the EP elections, but then collapse back to around 5% in the GE the talk will all be of a “busted flush”. I don’t want that to happen so will stick with UKIP even if that does let Labour in. There isn’t a lot of difference anyway and it might just give time for the Tories to do some listening and reflect on the fact that the EU is bad for the UK – really bad!

              • thanksdellingpole

                Let me tell you mate that the people of England will vote for UKIP in May from all over the political spectrum, then, in 2014, UKIP will clean up.

                Have no fear, you can count on a vote for UKIP to be a vote that counts.

      • http://www.facebook.com/josephalan.jones Joseph Alan Jones

        The problem is; what would be the best election result. It maybe best if green/liebour get in again and for them to be themselves and bring the country down to the very very lowest bottom. Crash!! That will finish them for good. Then there will not be a whimper as they disappear from sight; the country then gets sorted out properly, so that it is safe for a few decades.

        • Colonel Mustard

          It’s a nice idea but I have a horrible feeling that if they get in again their legislative programme will be even more radical than New Labour and effectively turn this country into a single party state. We might expect a dramatic push from the collective for more oppressive and intrusive law, more censorship, more political correctness, less freedom and no doubt more immigration to cleanse the white, racist majority once and for all. All for our own good of course.

          North Korea is f***ed as a country but that is no consolation for the people who still have to live there and put up with ruling elite.

          • thanksdellingpole

            Labour are anti-British that’s for sure.

  • fubarroso

    “… uncertainty over whether David Cameron really will make good his promise on an EU referendum”

    I don’t think there is any uncertainty there for UKIP to exploit. Cameron will not make good his promise on an EU referendum – full stop!

    • HookesLaw

      Proof? You have to pretend otherwise to justify your fantasy position.
      Any new treat taking power to Brussels will require a referendum by Law.

      The Eurozone fiscal treaty which is being formulated will affect the UK and will trigger a new relationship with the EU and a referendum. the only chance of us not having a referendum will be if we have a Labour govt and thats what voting UKIP will give us.

      • Russell

        The best way to avoid a Labour government is for all tory voters to vote for UKIP!

        • HookesLaw

          or Conservative.

          • Russell

            The three ‘main’ parties membership numbers are falling whereas UKIP has a fast growing membership, not to mention increase in popularity in every poll.

      • fubarroso

        Have you any idea of the powers that have been transferred to Brussels since the Referendum Lock was put in place? The lock was actually used by Hague to block a referendum.

  • telemachus associates

    You can bet your life that with the mention of the Bulgarians and Romanians it will get the usual crew on to the work shy indiginous-see 17 April
    ” all young Brits are work-shy inadequates with no skills
    and all immigrants are a wholly beneficial boost to our economy and
    culture.”

    • Colonel Mustard

      Which is another deliberately misleading misquote. Here is the full quote:-

      “Some of the troubles of this country stem from socialists like you who have a rose-tinted, romantic and utterly naive perception of foreigners whilst nursing a contempt for your own countrymen and women. Thus you can engage in the stupid polarisation that all young Brits are work-shy inadequates with no skills and all immigrants are a wholly beneficial boost to our economy and culture.”

  • MikeF

    “it trades on uncertainty.” In other words it points out that the Government is committed to a course of action – or inaction – the consequences of which it simply cannot predict because it has no control over them.

    • telemachus associates

      No they spout purported policies in ares where the facts are in doubt

      • MikeF

        “associates” – do you now think of yourself in the plural?

        • telemaque

          Our views are what the country crave after now 3 years of so called austerity that has now led to the IMF criticising
          Who knows what they will say when they come in May

          • MikeF

            “Our” – so you do.

            • Colonel Mustard

              He regularly does that – as most Labour advocates do. Conflating their views as being the same everyone else’s and using phrases like “the public” when they actually mean the “Labour voting public”.

              • MikeF

                Thanks Colonel but you know I don’t think he does. For a start much of the ‘Labour voting public’ is actually viewed with contempt by the self-styled and self-regarding socialist apparatchiks who make up much of the party’s apparatus and they neither know not care what such people think. No – it really is the proverbial ‘royal we’ by which people who call themselves socialists assume an air of superiority over poeple who don’t because…well there aren’t any reasons really, but that doesn’t stop them. After all they are socialists.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I happily concede the point.

          • Russell

            They will come to the conclusion that the UK cannot afford another labour government, as many of the reasonably intelligent people in the UK also understand.

  • http://www.facebook.com/martin.adamson.75 Martin Adamson

    The mere fact that NO reliable statistics about immigration are in the public domain tells us that the situation is truly catastrophic. If there were any statistics at all that showed that immigration was a net benefit to the country or to the economy, every single establishment politician and establishment media voice would be trumpeting them at the tops of their voice at every possible opportunity.

    (If you want an idea what the statistics are likely to say, google for articles on immigration statistics for Denmark and the Netherlands, whose governments not only publish them, but sometimes even act upon the results.)

    • HookesLaw

      In what way are there no reliable statistics? Net immigration statistics are published each year and they show that net immigration fell last year.

      • Wessex Man

        “I believe in Angels.”

      • thanksdellingpole

        Doesn’t mean the ones we have are any good does it.

  • Russell

    Really Isabel! You forgot to mention the fact that Hodge didn’t say that she used to work for one of the ‘big four’ she criticised (Price Waterhouse), or that labour shadow treasury ministers Leslie and Jamieson have Price Waterhouse employees working in their offices, or that Balls, Umuna and Reeves all had Price Waterhouse employees working for them, or the fact that Hodge and her £18 million of shares tied up in family trust funds in Stemcor steel hypocritically avoid inheritance tax.
    Information kindly supplied by Guido.

    • telemachus associates

      And you forgot to mention that Guido is now in the pay of Murdoch

      • Russell

        Sky are ‘in the pay’ of Murdoch and have turned so anti conservative they now are no different to the labour party broadcasting service called the bbc.

        • telemachus associates

          But Sky is subject to media codes of ethics

          • Russell

            The bbc is also meant to be subject to balanced reporting but has ignored this for years, preferring to be pro EU, pro man made climate change and pro labour/socialism.
            Ukip should include selling off the bbc to its policies to gain a few more million dissatisfied licence fee payers.

            • telemachus associates

              Agree the BBC is drifting to the right since it was taken over by a former Tory Party Chairman
              It is stacked by right wing interviewers and commentators and Tory MPs-Andrew Neil, Matthew Paris and Gyles Brandreth for starters

              • Harold Angryperson

                “Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it’s SUPERTROLL!”

                • telemaque

                  No just the true bill escaping from my clone
                  You however understand that the reasonable are currently flying and the coalition UKIP etc seem very yesterday

              • Colonel Mustard

                Didn’t know Andrew Neil was a Tory MP.

                But joking aside, three names is not “stacked”. A list of the known lefties would be enormous, especially if you included the BBC house “comedians” and the act-ors they are in love with, like McChicken.

            • The_Missing_Think

              Your implied logic omits real life events…

              “turned so anti conservative” + “preferring to be pro EU” = Huge contradiction.

              Both the BBC and the Tories are very pro EU, Cameron has declared it when pushed,and he has also three line whipped against a vote on EU membership.

              “A leading Tory backbencher says his party’s high command is in “complete panic” over next week’s Commons vote on an EU referendum.

              David Cameron has imposed a three-line whip to vote it down”

              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15384889

              • Russell

                Read again before misrepresenting what I wrote.
                I didn’t say ‘turned so’ anti conservative, the bbc always have been anti conservative, I agree that the majority of the current conservative party are pro EU including Cameron who says he will campaign to stay in if a referendum ever takes place with an out option.
                The BBC are pro EU and pro man made climate change and pro labour, nothing contradictory there.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  One should also note the distinction between the lower and upper case “C” in the word.

                  One can be a conservative and have nothing but derision for the Conservatives.

                • The_Missing_Think

                  I visually emphased the (agreed) main point I was getting at.

                  However, I still think your “quoted” logic is flawed, and indirectly gives the Tories credibility, which is bad for UKIP. One of the very first things the 83.4 percent Tory led coalition did, was to give the BBC another guaranteed 20 billion for the next 6 years… there was still no Tory love of ‘free markets’ for the BBC… hmmm?

                  Useful Leftist banging on incessantly about ‘the ‘cuts’ is good for the Tories, as it bolsters their image as ‘the painfully sensible Tories’, that you can trust and vote for… whilst…

                  “Just 6pc of the British realise that the national debt is rising” – Fraser Nelson 4 December 2012.

                  “I suspect you can listen to ever single BBC News outlet tomorrow (save for Five Live and BBC2 Daily Politics) without being given an inkling that the debt is rising.”

                  http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2012/12/just-6pc-of-the-british-realise-that-the-national-debt-is-rising/

            • Makroon

              I wouldn’t waste a good evening watching the pantomime that is “Question Time”, let alone give Hodge the compliment of considering her humbug, but it appears that Dimblebore has recruited Farage as another useful idiot to score a few more points against the Tories, with his captive rent-a-mob audience.

            • thanksdellingpole

              My understanding is that UKIP members aren’t unsure of whether to feed the BBC to the crocodiles or to reduce their funding. Given the recent U-turns of Farage I would expect them to buckle if they ever got in, but I can assure you that the majority of UKIP voters want the BBC dissolved.

        • thanksdellingpole

          Don’t watch and don’t pay, they’re a purely private service.

          • Russell

            I don’t, at least not to Murdoch & Sky, I get Sky news channels and some others free with my virgin subscription!

  • Hexhamgeezer

    ‘points to one of UKIP’s key campaigning strategies: it trades on uncertainty’

    Yes, that will be the uncertainty, the lies, the evasions, the dissembling, and the distortions dished up by LibLabCon, the Civil Service and media for decades.

  • tele_machus

    Lol!. There is no uncertainty about immigration. We are issuing 670,000 National Insurance numbers to foreign nationals each year. That is pretty clear. I don’t think there is a trading on uncertainty at all. The intent is to continue to allow such high levels of immigration, especially to urban centres, that the traditional English culture and society collapses and it becomes possible to create a new order without national identity and without commitment to traditional Western values.

    It’s working. People know it’s working. But they have become afraid to do more than complain. UKIP is their last chance and not much of a chance. But they will not take it. The revolution has already taken place.

    • HookesLaw

      in fact the total number of NI No registrations to adult overseas nationals entering the UK in 2011/12 was 601 thousand, a fall of 104 thousand (15%) on the previous year.
      http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/niall/nino_allocations_aug12.pdf

      NI numbers do not measure outflows so if someone stays for 6 months applies for a number and then leaves it gives no indication of net migration.

      • Wessex Man

        Does it not enter your tiny heads that the UK is overflowing, that Hospitals, Schools, Housing Associations and Councils just can’t cope now!

        • dalai guevara

          Speak for yourself. 20 years ago, Manchester had a population of less less than 2,000 (!) in its city centre. Liverpool was dead in the water, literally. You keep referring to your vision of a centralised South East, please include THE WHOLE of Britain in your analysis ( the population of Scotland is actually falling).

          Once you move away from your London-centric outlook, and look at Britain as a whole, you will not come to the same conclusions.

          Centralisation is the problem – once you tackle that, you solve everything.

          • Wessex Man

            There you go again, making your own mind up about people posting on here, I would thought that even you would gather that the moniker Wessex Man comes from the West Country!

            Not being London -centric, I still see the problems of over crowding of the the most densely populated country in Europe. Even by the “Official” Government figures of 60,000,000 that increases our population by 12,000,000 since the end of WW2, in which we could not feed ourselves! Tesco and Asda figures reckon there are closer to 70,000,000.

            Our Hospitals, Schools, Prisions and housing stocks just can’t cope with more. Unless of course you want to build new cities at the rate of one Birmingham every year and where would you build them? In the Highlands?

            I suggest you spend four hours waiting in A&E with a loved one with not enough seating, vending machines broken or empty and overflowing tiolets then seeing them brought to tears by overworked tired staff before talking absolute bilge.

            • dalai guevara

              Jeez, Wessex Man – you have a second homes problem where you’re from. Stop pretending it’s an immigrant problem.
              Britain is NOT the most densely populated country in Europe – that’s…Belgium. Frankly, the density of most of our (perfectly accessible) regions is ridiculously low.
              My A&E department is spot on, up to scratch and brand new – the NHS has never failed me.
              Overworked NHS staff are now the reason why not a single manager/policy maker has been sacked, but nurses appear in need of retraining.

              The world, erhm rephrase: Britain has gone completely bonkers.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Britain might not be but England is. The Telegraph were already reporting that in 2008 so none of your codswallop please.

                “(The UK’s) overall population density is one of the highest in the world at 674 people per square mile, due to the particularly high population density in England (currently over 1000 people per square mile).”

                You can keep making excuses. Keep trying to make 2 and 2 add up to 5. But people can see and feel the situation for themselves. Your experiences, your aspirations and your values are not everyone’s.

                • dalai guevara

                  Your figures are correct – but you have clearly never been to either metropolitan China, the whole of India or Japan, never mind Holland or Belgium. That, my dear colonel, is more than half the planet. So we are in the top 50% of the LEAST densly populated areas on the planet (!).

                  If you want to make regional argument (have you now made the quantum leap and declared England independent?), you would need to compare regions, or cities. And even here, the most densily populated zones in London will not come close to Metroplitian Madrid, Barcelona, Athens, Berlin or Paris.

                  So what is your point?

                • Wessex Man

                  So we are not as densely packed in as the metropolitan areas of China, India and Japan, you still want to try and make us so, what a Rodney you are!

                • dalai guevara

                  Plonk plonk goes the pebble skipping the waters of DESERTED Welsh and Scottish shores – Formby is also not exactly heaving.

                  You willfully ignore the decentralisation argument all whilst misrepresenting me – why is that?

            • thanksdellingpole

              I think it’s fair to say it’s a cultural problem, one where the English culture has been overtaken and bleached.

              nationalculturists.org

          • thanksdellingpole

            Allowing areas to offer up their own ethnic quotas, good idea!

        • thanksdellingpole

          Nobody listens to the ramblings on a middle aged woman who rails against right-thinking people, this is a forum for debate on anything UKIP now.

      • Colonel Mustard

        601,000 a year seems like a lot to me – over half a million. In a year? The previous year’s immigration was equivalent to the whole population of the county I live in. No wonder people are worried. That is totally unsustainable, whatever Lama Che might say.

  • Tim Durden

    I thought Farage came across very well last night. Seemed to have the support of the majority of the audience. But the leader of the Green party on the other hand…

    • telemachus associates

      That is Farages trademark

      Hail fellow well met

      But no substance

      What has he to contribute on the NHS

      On Schools

      On Prisons

      On Scotland

      On transport

      They used to say he was a one horse Party Leader. That was unfair. He pontificates on both immigration and Europe

      • Smithersjones2013

        Well instead of prevaricating why don’t you go and look on the UKIP website because from what I recall they have far more policies on their website than Labour currently have (including some of the ones you mention)

        • Andy

          He can’t: he is only an ‘associate’ and needs the dimwit Telemachus to tell him to do that !

    • Andy

      You mean that Australian Woman.

    • ButcombeMan

      One thing that Isabel missed, is what Farage had to say about Romanian crime in the London area,

      It is bad, it is getting worse and as someone who has travelled in Eastern Europe I can tell you all, you have seen nothing yet.

      The cost of dealing with it is enormous.

      • allymax bruce

        Is there any danger of EU immigrants bringing ‘cross-border wars’, (that have traditionally been played-out on their own ‘home-turf’), being instituted here in ‘Britain’?
        For instance, I mean, is there any ‘grievance’ between the Polish people, and the Romanian people? This is only a hypothetical example; I’m not for one minute saying there would be. I’m not trying to suggest anything at all; all I’m doing is honestly asking if we, as the welcoming Nations of Britian, & Scotland, have anything to worry about with immigrants, that bring with them contentious griveances from their own cultures?

        • Tom Fisher

          Britain isn’t a nation. You mean England and Wales.

        • Hexhamgeezer

          If there are any grievances you can guarantee they will be played out over here as well.

          North & East London plays host to a few such away fixtures. I have fond memories of battles between Tamils and other Sri Lankans round the ‘stow.

        • Wessex Man

          A bit previous there “as the welcoming Nations of Britain & Scotland” you’ve got to win your “independence referendum” first and that seems to be a receding prospect as each day goes by. Still I’ll leave you to play with your fantasy.

    • SchizoidMan

      no, no,no.

      You will find that Simon Hughes and the LibDems are the party to represent Britain, he is a an honourable man and as trustworthy as Cast Iron Dave…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHZYXOm898Q

  • kyalami

    Here’s a prediction for the local elections: 1st: Labour 2nd: UKIP 3rd: Cons 5th LibDem (4th: anyone else). But 1st and 2nd might be swapped.

    • Russell

      I personally would relish that result but unfortunately don’t believe it is possible. I do however believe that UKIP will make the largest positive percentage shift, with Labour 2nd…as for the tories, highest losers followed by LibDems.

      • telemachus associates

        Many of my friends who used to use the LibDems or Greens as protest are saying they will vote UKIP
        We must encourage this to allow a famous victory in 2 years and a return to a Chancellor who will invest

        • Andy

          You have ‘friends’ ??? Surely not . . . .

      • ButcombeMan

        I tend to agree, a straw poll last week of an admittedly quite old audience in my rural local (In which many joined in who I have never heard speak about politics) showed that 70% of those present were going to vote UKIP in the Council elections, had never done so before (bar one) and were doing it by common consent because they have just “had enough”.

        It may not be sensible but it looks as though it could happen.

        The feeling about voting UKIP in European elections, is even stronger.

        The absolute contempt for Cameron, from many one time Tory supporters, has to be seen to be believed. All his own work of course.

  • Harold Angryperson

    Well, all I can say is that last night the ghastly trinity of Hughes, Berger and that shrieking harpy from the Greens came across even worse.

    • telemaque

      Luciana is a tireless campaigner for the oppressed

      “I was delighted to join Fareshare Merseyside – a great organisation – at their base in Speke to talk about my campaign on food poverty. Fareshare were involved in my film – Breadline Britain, and they do fantastic work in tackling food poverty.”

      • Russell

        And yet another tele troll!

        • telemaque

          No the true bill escaping from my clone

      • Harold Angryperson

        Luciana embodies everything that is wrong with modern politics – patronage, arrogance, style over substance and never having lived/worked in the real world. Read here about her selection for her safe seat:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciana_Berger#2010_general_election

        • telemachus associates

          Yes

          Direct quote

          “Having secured the nomination for Wavertree Berger campaigned on pledges to work closely with local business, tackle anti-social behaviour, maintain public services and to reduce the number of derelict houses in the constituency by ensuring the Council use tough laws fast to deal with absent landlords”
          Seems like a good girl

          • Harold Angryperson

            Except MPs are elected to scrutinise legislation, not act as social workers.

      • alabenn

        A film maker no less, so really you are just another Labour scrounger living of benefits, aka Film Subsidy and the National Lottery Fund, whichever you cut it, living off the backs of the poor.

      • Colonel Mustard

        She was dire as a panellist with a most unfortunate way of speaking that put me in mind of the two words “slot” and “gob”. Like a younger, gobbier version of that other shouty Labour MP Caroline Flint. Her only saving grace was that the awful foreign shrieky woman from the Water Melon party was ten times worse.

        But the scariest part was imagining that she might one day be a minister in a government ruling over us, at the ripe old age of 34, with all that homespun, mothers standing at the gate of the primary school judgementalism and the “I want this, I want that” from that spoilt mouth that she kept repeating ad nauseum. Urgh!

        • Mr Creosote

          They all have an unfortunate way of speaking, so she’ll fit right in with the adenoidal twins Ed Militant and Rachel Reeves

        • thanksdellingpole

          Better vote UKIP then, they don’t do those.

    • Mr Creosote

      I’ve come to expect little else from the Greens – they have a very tenuous grip on reality.
      The one that really worries me is Berger – her answers displayed no depth of knowledge on any subject and , though she was relatively easy on the eye (not difficult sat next to Farage), it is clear she’s not done a day’s real work in her life.

      • allymax bruce

        The so-called Greens, are part of the International Marxist conglomeration; like Labour, they ‘answer-up’ to those super-rich that are ‘the troika’, and, are functioanlly The Republican Party.

        • Wessex Man

          There I was thinking they were just a bunch of loonies.

          • thanksdellingpole

            Useful idiots often are.

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