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Is that a ‘no’ then, Owen?

13 March 2013

12:56 PM

13 March 2013

12:56 PM

To my simple suggestion that Owen Jones apologise for claiming that an 11-month old child killed by a Hamas rocket was in fact killed by an Israeli ‘so-called targeted strike’, Owen appears to have answered ‘no’.

He starts his reply: ‘In the last couple of years I’ve learned one thing: the right don’t like me very much, and expend a sizeable amount of energy attacking me personally rather than my writing.’

In saying that he has learned even ‘one thing’ I fear Owen exaggerates. He begins his next paragraph: ‘Hard right pseudo-intellectual [Douglas] Murray…’ Nothing worse than attacking a person rather than their writing is there? Of course it is no concern to me whether Owen thinks me an ‘intellectual’, pseudo or otherwise, or regards me as hard, soft or medium right. What matters are the facts. Incidentally Rod Liddle attacks Owen’s writing here.

Owen is now attempting to argue that this is about facts other than the one he picked up and ran with, or that it is not about what he has said but what other people have or have not said. He writes that ‘Murray and his cynical allies [who are these people?] are attempting to bury the contents of the rest of this [UN] report.’ Though I cannot of course speak for my mysterious ‘cynical allies’ I myself have no such ‘plan’. I am simply inviting Owen to admit he used a fact that was wrong. Here is why it matters.

[Alt-Text]


Currently Owen’s main justification for not correcting his factual error boils down to: ‘Everybody else was doing it!’

There are three things to say about this:

1). No they weren’t. Some who have observed the wars in that region know that although you have to be careful about attributing casualties in the heat of any conflict, you must be especially careful with this one.

2). Even if every paper in the world had attributed the blame incorrectly that would not mean that they should not now correct their mistake, or that Owen should avoid doing so.

3). So far as I know, none of the journalistic sources Owen cites (such as the Washington Post) used the tragic death of an 11-month old child as a springboard for a demagogic and self-righteous rant against Israel on prime-time TV. Owen did not simply report a fact, he used the ‘fact’ to rail against Israel in a speech packed with lies about that country which singularly failed even to mention the genocidal anti-Semites of Hamas. As the clip can remind people, Owen delivered his one-dimensional anti-Israel diatribe in a tone of absolute moral certainty on prime time television to a potential audience of millions.

If Owen does not wish to correct his mistake then that is his prerogative. But I think people might rightly wonder in future why he should be listened to on such matters. Journalism and propaganda are different things. Owen appears to have demonstrated that his devotion to the latter trumps his aspirations to the former.


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Show comments
  • paulus

    I like him he is a Man

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Angela-Horne/1621823849 Angela Horne

    I want Owen to publish his B.A. & M.A. in History qualifications because he does not come across as learned at all. Down arrow me if you like, but that action will not present a factual case any more than Owen does, truly, no Owen supporter commenting has presented one proven fact so far.

  • Austin Barry

    He’s a funny little chap, Owen. You get the feeling that he read Bukanin and Marx as a maturbatory teen, but rather overlooked Orwell. He will mature and perhaps have a Christopher Hitchens-like conversion to common sense. Meanwhile, he seems to be following the curious idiocy of Polly Toynbee.

    Godspeed, Owen, we hope to see over on this side in a few years.

  • jlevyellow1

    Owen Jones writes, “[They spend a] sizeable amount of energy attacking me personally rather than my writing”

    I am not English, but American, so I do not understand Mr. Jones. Perhaps we need to understand that when he lies, that is indeed his writing style. Therefore, he feels bent out of shape about criticism of his work. To him, it seems, style and content are the same. If the reader cannot appreciate his fabrications, then they do not like either his style or him.

  • Julian_F

    Who is Owen Jones?

    • David Ossitt

      Some Welsh socialist nutter.

      • Eddie

        Oh no don’t blame the Welsh! Obviously with a name like that he has a Welsh father or mother (both middle class rich academics actually), but it is the perpetually leftwing Labour-voting northernness-nattering victimhood-craving north of England that should take the blame for prattling twerps like Owen Jones.

  • tigerlily

    On a a different but related topic can someone please edit the wikipedia entries for ‘far right’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics and ‘hard left’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_left to make them a bit less biased? (Sorry don’t feel up to it myself but its definitely needed).

  • jjjj

    …And this comes after magistrates fined a well known Leftie in Liverpool over antisemitic remarks made to Luciana Berger MP. Of course, these people are only ‘antiZionist’… and there is no antisemitism in the Left…

  • jjjj

    I see Lord Ahmed has been suspended from the Labour Party because (in an interview with that humane country Pakistan) he blamed a Jewish conspiracy over his driving conviction.

    Quelle surprise.

  • Penny

    I really wish Owen – and others – would take a little more responsibility for their actions. I feel they act as if this conflict is a cause du jour, tailored to match their right-on credentials, while overlooking the very real, very ordinary people whose lives their ill-informed views may affect. Stirring up anger by misinforming the public – whether deliberately or otherwise – endangers others. What outcome do they hope for? If they had an ounce of foresight they might consider that their rallies, conducted in absolute safety from armchairs positioned in a benign island, are encouraging more warfare and cannot remotely be construed as caring about the oppressed.

    In her recent open letter to Charles Enderlin (reference Mohammed al-Dura), Esther Schapira wrote:

    “It may sound silly to you, but as a journalist I feel personally insulted by your behavior because it is a disgrace for our profession. As journalists we have the duty to find out the truth and tell it. We are not part of any campaign. We are eyewitnesses and we tell our audience what we have seen, what we heard, and what we found out. We ask critical questions and we insist on getting answers. We act according to our best belief — or at least we should. And when we get criticised, when people question our work, when they have doubts and even when they attack us in an unfair way, we have to deal with that by giving more and better and more convincing answers, by presenting more facts. And if we don’t take them seriously because their reaction seems to us to be completely unjustified, we just raise an eyebrow and let them do what they think they must do because this is the freedom of expression, freedom of speech, the essence of democracy”

    And, more importantly:

    “….We do know, however, that the story is very different from the way you told it. We know that this false story killed people because it became a major tool of propaganda and was used as a justification for murder, as in the slaughter of Daniel Pearl.”

  • http://twitter.com/nadeem1afzal nadeem afzal

    “Journalism and propaganda are different things. Owen appears to have demonstrated that his devotion to the latter trumps his aspirations to the former”…
    *snorts* Errr pot kettle black Murray

  • http://twitter.com/ocschwar ocschwar

    And of course they closed comments on his page. What cowards.

  • andy_gill

    Owen Jones has damaged his reputation with this affair, and it’s entirely his own fault. He cannot be trusted to tell the truth honestly, and refuses to admit his mistakes.

    But we should be grateful to little Owen. He has demonstrated to the wider world that Question Time is a place where lies are told. and no-one is held accountable.

  • The_greyhound

    Is Owen Jones actually the same person as Johan Harri after a (much needed) makeover, or a different swivel-eye? And is either of them also Seumas Milne? Or are all of them the same computer program that slops up traditional marxist rant in new random permutations?

    I was going to say that “I think we should be told” but honestly I can’t care.

  • DougS

    OK, so he won’t apologise!

    How about just a straightforward correction then? No?

    Shame on the nasty little so and so. And I do hope that Dimbleby mentions it the next time that Jones is on QT (as he too often is) – but I’m not holding my breath for that one either.

    • ProffessorPlum

      If you follow the links in my post yesterday, you’ll see that Doug is basing his facts on a piece of propaganda and not on the actual UN report.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Angela-Horne/1621823849 Angela Horne
      • adamber

        ..whilst owen jones was basing his on what?

      • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

        no he’s not. Advance release version does not equal propaganda!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Angela-Horne/1621823849 Angela Horne

    I want Owen to publish his M.A. in History qualification because he does not come across as erudite at all. Down arrow me if you like, that action will not present a factual case any more than Owen does, truly, no Owen supporter commenting has presented one proven fact so far.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Harris/1201395549 Michael Harris

      Well Angela,what’s having a degree got to do with education ?I would never have made such a comment 30 years ago but things have changed…

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Angela-Horne/1621823849 Angela Horne

        so keen to protect him! lol!

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Harris/1201395549 Michael Harris

          No-it was just an idle comment. I hate the leftie ratbag’s guts…

    • adamber

      The problem is that many degrees have become meaningless, taught by lecturers who have the same leftist monochrome views.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Angela-Horne/1621823849 Angela Horne

        please stop making excuses for him; I want to see for myself what this guy is about

  • Wessex Man

    Why has my comment been removed? It wasn’t offensive in any way and I would like to know, my comments have been deleted on several pages, is there a new hand at work or are you turning into the NewStatesman?

  • margaret benjamin

    So many times Israel are blamed for many similar incidents. The only army who drops leaflets makes phone calls and sends texts messages to the terrorists warning them of an imminent attack. The Palestinians already know the power of the press, and make much of it! So Israel has to fight with all these things in mind, all apart from apologising to their enemies. This is because of criticism from the EU and the UN blaming them for everything under the sun. Owen Jones should apologise without delay to Israel lest people think you really are prejudice and a Shmuck.

    • Grrr8

      Waiting for your apology to Muslims Margaret, for all the nasty bigoted things you have said about them.

  • David Webb

    Good post, Douglas. The man is really engaged in student politics, still. The trouble is that much of what passes for politics in England has this kind of playacting feel to it. It’s as if Israel was condemned before he even heard any of the facts, simply because it is Israel.

  • http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

    A moral and ethical mind, seeing they had erred in their assessment based on false or faulty information, would revise and correct their perspective and judgement in relation to that more accurate.

    In this case it would mean reviling Hamas and their ilk both for firing their weapons within civilian enclaves, as well as showing the dangers of using weapons that are far from reliable, so as to cause misery to their own subjects.

    Not to mention their intention to cause death and injury to the civilian population of those they regard as their enemy.

    Owen Jones, and the rest of the left wing mindset show not only that they lack a true moral and ethical mind, but show their motive has nothing to do with right or wrong, just looking to appease those they fear – militant Islamists, and will use any excuse to maintain their scared agenda.

    SCUM = SUCCUMB

  • Grrr8

    Dougie old bean, have you asked Fraser Nelson to apologise? He after all is the editor of this fine publication, which reported exactly the same set of facts that Owen did. You know the old principle of people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones or better yet “don’t point out the speck in your neighbours eye when you have a board in yours.”

    • adamber

      They aren’t “facts”. They’re lies. The difference of course being that Fraser Nelson didn’t attempt to use this lie to besmirch and delegitimize an entire country.
      Do you understand the difference?

  • OldSlaughter

    This is sexual assault without lubrication.

    Wonderful as ever Douglas.

  • HJ777

    Why would anybody want to listen to Owen Jones about anything?

    I made the mistake of reading a couple of his articles once. I shall never waste my time on his adolescent rants ever again. I prefer to read articles by intelligent people who can argue a a coherent case.

    • adamber

      What can you expect of someone who thinks that every millionaire earns a million pounds per year? He is a complete moron.

      • HJ777

        Why does that not surprise me?

        To be fair, I suppose that Ed Miliband appears to believe that too.

  • http://twitter.com/MisGrace Julieann Carter

    Well done Mr Murray for calling Owen to account. The right and proper thing to do.

  • Mark Turner

    Taxi for Owen.

  • Bickers

    It’s the socialists that prevent the working class from having aspiration and a route to a better standard of living. Without a working/underclass socialists don’t have a captured supporter base. And that tells you all you need to know about their agenda.

  • zanzamander

    Without Israel, Owen, White, Milnes and BBC/Guardian would be without a job.

    • Mr.D.Advocate

      No don’t be silly. They always have the ‘evil’ Tories to focus on.

  • darwins beard

    Jones is unfortunately typical of a generation of pseudo socialist students, it would be more telling to ask if he would condemn Hamas in a yes/no format.

    The fact he is deflecting his shoddy journalism as a personal attack shows how incapable he is of standing his ground in this matter.

  • ProffessorPlum

    What the author of this little piece seems not have mentioned is that the document he claims proves his case is not an official document and only an advance copy.

    One can see just by reading what it claims to be the reason for Israel’s attack – an attack on the IDF from Gaza totally ignoring the Killing of an elderly Palestinian farmer in Northern Gaza and a teenager playing football by the IDF which resulted in the attack on the IDF, that his document is pure propaganda.

    10/10 for effort Doug but only 0/10 for content

    Here’s the actual report, which doesn’t even mention Omar Jihad al-Mishrawi

    http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/RegularSession/Session22/AHRC221_English.pdf

    • FMarion

      Proffessor: Or perhaps the deaths were “in response” to the rockets? Or perhaps you don’t know and don’t really care much which came first in each incident?

      Seriously, do you really think that a “lasting ceasefire” is possible with an organization that officially rejects the idea of negotiation with Israel? But, of course, if one assumes that Israel’s real purpose is to keep a state of siege going in order to “create casualties” then one isn’t even going to ask, much less answer, such questions, is one? Although it is somewhat odd, given all the weapons Israel has, why Gazan casualties are so low.

      • ProffessorPlum

        “Proffessor: Or perhaps the deaths were “in response” to the rockets? Or perhaps you don’t know and don’t really care much which came first in each incident?”

        Are you trying to say that Israel would deliberately kill children and farmers just because some millitants fired a rocket or two, and that that action is acceptable?

        “Seriously, do you really think that a “lasting ceasefire” is possible”

        Well they showed it was possible in 2008 when Israel had to go into Gaza and kill 6 in order to break a ceasefire that had held for some weeks.

        And again last year when they had to kill a teenager playing football and an elderly farmer in order to provoke the attack on an Israeli military vehicle.

        If Israel could refrain from killing it may just result in and to rocket attacks.However with 3 Palestinians killed and over 100 injured in Gaza by Israeli aggression – and only 3 rockets fired out of Gaza – it would seem Israel couldn’t really care about a ceasefire.

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/in-keeping-gaza-truce-with-israel-hamas-shows-it-has-much-more-to-lose.premium-1.480247

        • FMarion

          Proffessor: OK, now you think that Israel shoots teenagers and elderly farmers in order to provoke Hamas attacks so it can launch retaliation attacks? Since you pretty obviously have never spent a day in uniform and know nothing about military matters, the possibility that scared, tired and exhausted young soldiers might shoot the wrong person appears never to have occured to you.

          It might be a good idea to let you and others here spend a week on border patrol duty: Never more than a few hours of sleep a day, on the constant lookout for IED’s before your jeep rolls over them, hitting the ground every time you hear a loud noise while you desperately look around to try to see if you are taking fire, and higher headquarters constantly on the radio reporting other incidents and demanding to know why you are behind on your patrol schedule. Meanwhile, you body armor weighs too much and is chafing you, your pack straps are rubbing your shoulders raw, your canteen is almost dry and the sweat keeps streaming down your forehead and into you eyes, making it hard to see through your rifle scope. Spend some time on patrol duty, Proffessor, and you might learn something from “Professor Reality.”

          But putting that aside, if Israel is really as cynical as you claim, don’t you think they could manufacture much more convincing incidents if they wanted to bomb Gaza? You know–something like a phony private message from Hamas’ bosses in Syria ordering a mass firing of rockets on a certain date. Something that wouldn’t have Israel’s fingerprints all over it?

          And, if they did it that way, they would have the excuse to drop lots and lots of bombs on Gaza in pursuit of their secret strategy to . . . um . . . well, drop lots of bombs on Gaza!

          Of course, an alternate way of looking at the whole thing is that Israel would prefer not having to deal with Gaza at all, but Hamas and the other militants there keep firing at Israel, and keep the border in a constant state of tension in order to force concessions out of Isreal, but obviously that couldn’t possibly be the case–could it?

          • ProffessorPlum

            “Since you pretty obviously have never spent a day in uniform and know nothing about military matters, the possibility that scared, tired and exhausted young soldiers might shoot the wrong person appears never to have occured to you. ”
            Excuse me but I fail to see what the IDF would find frightening about a small group of teenagers playing football would be a threat to them?
            Likewise an elderly man working on his farm.

            “Never more than a few hours of sleep a day, on the constant lookout for IED’s before your jeep rolls over them, ”
            And when exactly was the last time that happened?
            And how does killing a teenager playing football behind the fence prevent it?

            • FMarion

              Proffessor: When you say “I fail to see” you help prove the point I was making in the prior post. You indeed fail to see what I was trying to explain because you have no idea what it is like to be a soldier and you simply have no concept of the messy reality on the ground for even the world’s “most powerful armies.” Ironically, a Hamas gunman would understand the point I was making–he might not agree but he would understand.

              So let me try again. To you, a civilian living in a peaceful country, a soldier has no reason to be concerned about an IED because it’s been several months since one blew up an Israeli vehicle. But no soldier is going to think that way. His life is on the line. He knows that since Sharon pulled the army out of Gaza there have been thousands of sniping incidents, many IED’s, multiple ambushes and one succesful (and multiple unsuccesful) kidnappings. He is going to be scared out there on patrol because he doesn’t know if the cease fire is going to break down in the middle of his patrol and whether that break down will start with an ambush of his unit.

              Moreover, even with the cease fire, there is still frequent sniper fire and while the AK-47 isn’t much of a sniper’s weapon, a lucky round will kill you quite dead. So how does a teenager or old man get shot? Simple. That hyped up, scared, tired, hot and uncomfortable young soldier hears a shot. Of thinks he hears a shot. Or is told by the other jeep in his patrol that they are being shot at. He looks and sees movement–someone is running to get into position to enfilade his vehicle. His heart goes into his mouth and he shoots before he gets shot. Only, it isn’t someone who is moving into a firing position–it’s a teenager kicking a soccer ball.
              Or maybe not. Maybe the soccer ball is planted later and the kid was part of an ambush. There is no way we can tell from thousands of miles away and indeed the guys on that patrol are unlikely ever to know for sure themselves.
              That is the reality, or part of the reality, of being a soldier in such a situation. You might do well to think about that reality before you jump to conclusions that you find ideologically satisfying.

              • ProffessorPlum

                “To you, a civilian living in a peaceful country, a soldier has no reason to be concerned about an IED because it’s been several months since one blew up an Israeli vehicle.”

                May well be but the boys were playing football in Gaza and I fail to see what threat those posed to the IDF in their helicopter.

                Are you trying to say that every time an IDF sees a Palestinian going about their business in Gaza, the IDF is justified in shooting the Palestinian

                You mention kidnappings or the kidnappind, which in reality was the capture of an enemy combatant, but you fail to mention the hundreds kidnapped by the IDF. You seem unable to equate Israels actions to those of the Palestinians. Your fear is justifiable, whereas their fear and their loss of land is just something they should accept without resistance.

                “Moreover, even with the cease fire, there is still frequent sniper fire ”

                Yes coming from the Israeli side, which is what resulted in the deaths of the teenager playing football and the elderly farmer in his fields and the retaliation by Hamas which killed 3 IDF soldiers.

                And which since the latest ceasefire was introduced has resulted in over 100 injuries and 3 deaths of Gazans shot by the IDF.

                • FMarion

                  Proffessor: Perhaps it might make sense to go back and read what I actually said? Of course, if you prefer, you can go on and keep creating strawmen to knock down, but I see no further point in trying to show you that reality can differ radically from your preconceptions since it is pretty clear that you will not let yourself understand something that might shake those preconceptions. But good luck, and I hope for your sake that Hamas doesn’t win any major battles because its likely actions if that happens might cause your world to crumble.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  ” it might make sense to go back and read what ”

                  You said the IDF should be scared of IEDs, but how exactly can they be a threat to IDF soldiers in a Helicopter and necessitate the shooting in the head of a teenager playing football?

                  Does the IDF’s fear of IEDs mean they can shoot whoever they want?

                  When was the last time IDF suffered an attack by an IED?

                • FMarion

                  Proffessor:

                  Do go back and read what I said before.

                  The short answers to your questions are (1) neither you nor I know whether the kid was playing soccer or not; assuming he was playing soccer obviously nothing “necessitated” his shooting but the fog of war could easily have caused it. One of the points of my earlier comments is that you seem to have never even heard–and have no understanding–of the fog of war. (2) What a ridiculous question. The answer is “of course not.” The further answer is I never suggested otherwise. (3) I have no idea when the last time they were hit by an IED but that has nothing to do with whether the soldiers will be jittery about them–and about snipers, ambushes and all the other fun things that can happen in combat and quasi-combat zones.

                  So here is my question back. Do you honestly think that you, a lifelong civilian (my guess is that you’ve never even shot a firearm, much less had one shot at you), sitting in a nice, safe, warm and dry room thousands of miles away, can definitely know whether a Palestinian boy in Gaza was actually playing soccer or not, and if he was, whether an Israeli boy who shot him knew that the Palestinian kid was playing soccer? I hope that your answer is “of course not,” but I’m not holding my breath.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “The short answers to your questions are (1) neither you nor I know whether the kid was playing soccer or not;”

                  Well all the news reports at the time stated he had been playing football.

                  ” I have no idea when the last time they were hit by an IED”

                  Of course you don’t, because it has happened for many years.

                  ” and all the other fun things that can happen in combat and quasi-combat zones.”

                  You seem to act as though there were no ceasefire in place at the time. Israel broke the ceasefire when it entered Gaza and started killing people. Something Dougie’s little propaganda piece fails to recognise.

                  But you are quite right, to Israel a ceasefire is irrelevant. As we are seeing during this present one; during which Israel has shot and injured over 100 and killed 3.

                • FMarion

                  Proffessor:
                  1. Perhaps the news reports are correct. Stranger things have happened, but I suspect that none of the reporters were present either. That isn’t to say that the kid wasn’t kicking a ball around–only that it is close to impossible to determine the truth in such circumstances.
                  2. IED’s. Well, Wikipedia has been known to be wrong, but it says IED attacks are one of the things that led to Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012.
                  3. Ceasefires. Yes, well it depends who broke the ceasefire in each instance, which neither of us knows. My guess is that both sides probably broke it more than once–that is the usual pattern with such things(the fog of war, again) and certainly Israel has reported at least as many cease fire breaches as the Palestinians.
                  4. Israel “entered Gaza and started killing people.” Well yes, but you’ve assumed your conclusion here. If they were fired on they might have had every right to do so.
                  5. To Israel a ceasefire is irrelevant. Again you assume your conclusion. You assume that it was Israel and not the Palestinians who broke the ceasefire each time.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “but it says IED attacks are one of the things that led to Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012.”

                  Without stating when or where they occured. The most likely reason for PoD was Israel’s need to test its missile defence system against virtually harmless rockets.

                  ” Ceasefires. Yes, well it depends who broke the ceasefire in each instance, which neither of us knows.”

                  Well we do know actually. In 2008 Israel broke it when it entered Gaza and killed six people it claimed were planning to tunnel into Israel.

                  And in 2012 when it shot a teenager in the head while he was playing football.

                  “To Israel a ceasefire is irrelevant. Again you assume your conclusion.2

                  No need to assume since the last ceasefire Israel has refused to honour the conditions – farmers can tend all their lands and fisherman can fish in their Gaza waters – and in addition it has shot and wounded over 100 and killed 3 in Gaza. Whereas, only 3 rockets have been fired from gaza causing no casualties.

                  It would seem that Israeli bullet is far more dangerous than a Palestinian rocket.

        • Penny

          I think you are mistaken in your elderly farmer/teenager comment.

          You might want to check out BBC Watch’s more in-depth account of this incident.

          http://bbcwatch.org/2013/01/14/accuracy-issues-in-bbc-report-on-death-of-gaza-farmer/

          • ProffessorPlum

            “BBC Watch’s”
            Is that some kind of independent NGO?
            Why is it only interested in the way the BBC handles stories affecting Israel?

            • Penny

              It’s not an NGO. It’s simply a site headed by a very knowledgable media analyst whose research puts the BBC to shame time and time again..It’s been running since last October and generally posts two articles per day – that’s the extent to which the BBC gets it wrong about Israel – either by omission or commission.
              I don’t really know what to make of your second question. It is – like many others of its type – a specialist site. There are plenty of them.

              • ProffessorPlum

                “I don’t really know what to make of your second question.”

                I’m sure you don’t. Let me help you. Why does its web site only deal with stories about Israel?

                If the BBC gets its facts wrong then it should be brought to light. Because crap journalism can be very misleading and lead people to all kinds of distorted views.

                For example the BBC calls the occupied territories ‘disputed’ , when in fact they are illegally occupied. Some people actually believe that Israel has a right to the land it illegally occupies because of this shoddy biased reporting.

                Anyway as you BBC watch only deals with reports about Israel, perhaps it should change its name to Israel Watch.

                As for its pro Israeli bias, you may find this interesting:

                http://www.globalresearch.ca/bbc-s-pro-israeli-bias/9307

                • Penny

                  The West Bank IS disputed territory. It is not because of shoddy biased reporting that “some people believe Israel has a right to the land” but rulings from the League of Nations and UN. If you want evidence then perhaps you will agree that the views of Eugene Rostow – co-author of Res 242 – can be trusted above any reporting, shoddy or otherwise.

                  “..But the Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, that is, in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, was made unassailable. That right has never been terminated and cannot be terminated except by a recognized peace between Israel and its neighbors. And perhaps not even then, in view of Article 80 of the U.N. Charter, “the Palestine article,” which provides that “nothing in the Charter shall be construed … to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments…”

                  http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/islegal1.shtml

                  As to your comment about BBC Watch – if you visit it from time to time, you will see why it is necessary. The articles – two per day, generally – demonstrate the poor quality of BBC reporting. While biased reporting may suit some who dislike Israel they should perhaps be concerned that if it can distort facts on one issue, how can we know if it does it elsewhere? I would also suggest that in its bias it tarnishes our (British) reputation.

    • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

      So Profee, the Advance Version is just propaganda? Is wrong? Changed? Edited? Not for perusal? Please elaborate…

      • ProffessorPlum

        “Please elaborate..”

        I already have done.

        • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

          No you haven’t. you have made a false statement. You are saying the Advance Version is propaganda.

          • ProffessorPlum

            It most certainly is propaganda. Read it.
            But not only is it propaganda It does not have the authority that Douglas claims it to have because it is not an official UN document.
            Perhaps Douglas is just lazy. Perhaps not. But he really should have been able to tell a genuine UN document from a false one.

            • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

              It is a March 2013 addendum to the Dec 2012 report. It is the advance version. It is not propaganda and you know it.

    • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

      And it should not be forgotten that wheteher or not Omar Jihad al-Mishrawi died at the hands of Israel or by accident, a lot of other children did die at the hands of Israel, who prefer to keep Gaza under a state of siege and create casualties than negotiate a lasting ceasefire.

      Nobody has forgotten but it is irrelevant to this thread. You should be asking why the hotels, supermarkets and Mercedes dealership do so well if Gaza is under a state of siege. Or why the Egyptians are closing/flooding tunnels. Or why the Jordan (the actual here and now Palestinian state) haven’t taken in their brothers. Or why the Gaza strip even exists. Or are you like the BBC when 1967 is year zero in the I/P conflict?

      • ProffessorPlum

        “Nobody has forgotten but it is irrelevant to this thread. You should be asking why the hotels, supermarkets and Mercedes dealership do so well if Gaza is under a state of siege.”

        Really I thought this thread was about the author trying to lay the blame on Hamas for Omar Jihad al-Mishrawi’s death .

        • adamber

          Yes, I mean it’s not like their rockets have ever fallen short before, is it? And Hamas, being such reasonable guys, they have admitted using their own population for proaganda.

        • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

          LOL. heeellooo…anyone in there…(certainly not a professor). My comment may be off topic because I was replying to you being off topic and telling you you were off topic…and your reply is ‘your comment is off topic’. Jeeez,

          • ProffessorPlum

            So stating that Douglas is using an unofficial document, which is quite clearly just pro Israeli propaganda, as though it were an official UN document to proves his case…, when the official UN document does nothing of the kind; has nothing to do with the thread in your mind.
            .
            One can see just by reading what Douglas’s little document claims to be the reason for Israel’s attack – an attack on the IDF from Gaza totally ignoring the Killing of an elderly Palestinian farmer in Northern Gaza and a teenager playing football by the IDF which resulted in the attack on the IDF, that his document is pure propaganda.

            http://www.ohchr.org/Documents

            10/10 for effort Doug but only 0/10 for content

            Here’s the actual report, which doesn’t even mention Omar Jihad al-Mishrawi

            http://www.ohchr.org/Documents

            • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

              you posted this same comment before, it is still wrong.

    • Eddie

      Well, maybe if people spent more time learning how to spell (Proffessor?) and less parroting anti-semitic hypocritical ravings (they never seem to criticise any Middle-Eastern, Asian or African despotic state with as much ire as Israel, which is odd really…) then the world would be a better place eh?

  • FMarion

    Owen Jones is destroying himself and doesn’t realize it. By the time this is over his name is going to be little more than a joke.

  • Eddie

    Convenient for Owen Jones to assume that ‘the right’ (which are Baaaaaaaad) don’t like him.
    But the truth is, that’s a straw man creation from the hypocritical middle class mind of Master Owen Jones. The left wing and centre hate him too – all except that Chavez-worshipping, union-troublemaker socialist worker type of pillock that never does any real work because they’re too busy shouting loonie leftie dogma at people.
    I would no call myself right wing, and I cannot stand the smug, dishonest, offensive, trite and tedious dribblings of Owen Jones, son of a university professor (ergo, not as ‘working clahhhhhs as he pretends) and apologist for Islamofascism and its women-hating, gay-murdering anti-semitic atrocities.
    Owen Jones will never admit he got it wrong. He’s not man enough. In that, he shows himself as someone with less morality than Chris Huhne, who at least was man enough for fess up when rumbled.

    • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

      He shat on the working class in the book that made him famous: “Chavs”, the whole thing built round a false premise.

      • Eddie

        He is also very much enjoying his elevation to the upper class of the Left, where he can join other leftie aristocrats (Denis Skinner, Tony Benn, Gwyneth Dunwoody, the millionaire Kinnocks) in lecturing everyone about equality whilst making a mint and living easy lives thanks to their low-paid servants to look afer their kids, clean their homes, produce them their cheap food and serve them in expensive restaurants.
        No doubt Owen Jones (middle class son of a typical hypocrite university professor on a big £50K+ salary and with half a million in property assets) fails to se the irony here.
        But the truth is that the Left has always loved a class structure, so long as it decides who is a member of the aristocracy.
        I attended a Labour meetings years ago (when I was a supporter, though not a member). A couple of Labour bigwigs attended and were worshipped as secular saints – people did actually bow, and it was rather like the election of a new Pope in Rome actually. Then a relative (perhaps granddaughter) or a former Labour PM turned up (I think Atleee or maybe Ramsay McDonald) – the veneration shown was about equal to that shown to the Madonna herself in Lourdes! Just because she sprang forth from the loins of a Labour leader…
        The Left love the class system and also go along with the hereditary principle. They often hate achievemnet by merit too, preferring quotas for ethnics and women.

  • http://hesspartacus.tumblr.com/ He’s Spartacus

    Welcome to the echo chamber world of @OwenJones84….

  • adamber

    Mr Murray, you are running rings around him – he is simply out of his depth.
    It’s almost cruel to watch.

    • hexton

      But isn’t it fun? In its way.

      I should love a glimpse, now, of what Owen Jones will be twenty-odd years hence. Will he have continued to travel along his current path without deviation, and thus view his younger self and opinions as entirely excellent; or will a fifty-year-old Mr Jones find reminders of that younger self sufficient to make him crawl under the carpet and hide?

    • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

      Yep, but OJ brought it on himself: he could have said, “Yes, I got it wrong, I apologise”…but he couldn’t even mange that and now digs the hole deeper by whining in another publication about how beastly he’s being treated.

      • adamber

        Oh I agree – he has brought this on himself – by being a knee jerk hater and bigot who is happy to engage in a modern day blood libel against an entire people.
        His name should be mud.

    • Damocles

      so speaks the voice of reason and impartiality (I don’t think)

      perhaps Mr Jones didn’t get it wrong ?

      • adamber

        Ah Damocles, I missed you! Especially your latest on the evil doings of the Jews, and how you would like to see them all perish in an Iranian nuclear bomb. This was Damocles’ contention on another thread – along with conspiracy theories about Jews and their “strange creed”.
        Yes Damocles, I’m going to take lessons from you in tolerance and rationality.

        • Damocles

          Still exercising the old ‘creative licence’ with respect to what I have or have not said I see

          The only one of the above that I did say is that Classical Judaism is a quirky creed

          I mean honestly, how could any rational human being really believe that they are superior just because of the group they belong to

          There is a rather strange assumption around that because ‘the Jews’ as a group were targeted in the 1930’s and 1940’s in Europe it follows that ‘the Jews’ are the good guys and all things Jewish are to be promoted and supported

          what abject nonsense

          Read Israel Shahak’s book ‘Jewish History, Jewish Religion’ but better hold on to your hat

          a quirky creed

          • adamber

            ..and the small matter that you would be very happy to see Israel exterminated with an Iranian nuke. Remember that?
            You are the classic example of a Jew hater who, by pure coincidence, happens to hate Israel.
            Funny that – I mean, that combination is just so unusual.
            I hope Owen Jones sees what his fellow travellers look like.

          • adamber

            Oh, and remember your racist assumption that I must be a Jew? You persisted with it even though I told you I wasn’t.

          • Westisthebest

            “I mean honestly, how could any rational human being really believe that they are superior just because of the group they belong to”

            Oh, is that all? Gee, well, that’s nothing!
            Where did you get that dumb idea. Israel Shahak. Try reading some real history.

            • Damocles

              no that isn’t all unfortunately
              not at all – it is just the beginning of all sorts of quirky beliefs

              Read the book

              From what you have written I suspect you don’t even know who Israel Shahak is

              I am not saying that they are all bad – I am saying that they have almost completely exempt from criticism for some time, meanwhile they never stop denigrating Christianity for example

              It is time people started looking at Classical Judaism (or Jewish Fundamentalism as it could be called) it is as extreme as any other religious fundamentalism (or worse) because this odd sense that they are somehow a higher form of life than the rest of us runs right through it

              read the book

              • adamber

                Pathetic Damocles – if you wish to know about Judaism, I suggest you consult an authoritative source. Shahak was not a theologian, and an orthodox rabbi would tell you that being “superior” has nothing to do with Judaism.
                Funny you don’t apply your analytic faculties, such as they are, to Islam.

                • stephen rothbart

                  I guess Damocles is referring to the concept that Jews are the Chosen People.

                  Damocles, having only a superficial understanding of his subject, probably thinks this is an elitist position, when of course, if anything it is almost a curse.

                  Most Jewish texts do not state that “God chose the Jews” because they were superior to others but to link Jews with a mission to spread God’s message.

                  This is no different from the Church having missionaries running around the world spreading the word of God according to the New Testament, or Islamic imams trying to convert others to their Prophet and saying only Allah is the Truth.

                  Jews don’t try to convert people. Basically they just want to be left alone, but people like Damocles will never do that. They have to have someone to hate.

      • Simon Morgan

        Another example of the Left’s inability to accept any wrongdoing. If Mr. Jones wasn’t wrong, we would have heard about it – of that there is no doubt. The Left has never learnt the real value of being able to admit when you are wrong.

  • sarah_13

    Thank you for posting the clip. Such a one sided diatribe it completely lacks
    any objectivity. It only helps Hamas who would see homosexuals thrown off buildings and Jews killed. I hope one day he looks back on the REALITY of the situation in Israel, gaza and the West Bank and regrets his irresponsible comments.

    • adamber

      Indeed – these ignorant and false comments, delivered with ill-advised self-righteous indignation, just add to the alienation of British Jews even further. I’m sure owen Jones doesn’t give a fig.

  • Justanian

    Owen Jones is the new Johann Hari.

    • ButcombeMan

      Without the intellectual honesty.

      • FrenchNewsonlin

        Hari had intellectual honesty? The man’s a charlatan.

        • adamber

          I think Butcombe Man was being sarcastic – at least I hope he was!

        • ButcombeMan

          MIssed irony alert.

          • FrenchNewsonlin

            Oops!

  • papyrus_maximus

    Fascio = “bundle”, in Italian. Was used as a pseudonym to mean “trade union”.

    Fascism has always been a left-wing populist movement that combined state worship, nationalism, authoritarianism and socialist populism.

    Interestingly, Italian fascism has never been anti-Semitic. Jews started to be persecuted and deported only when the nazis occupied Italy and installed a puppet government.

    It would appear that Owen Jones and the Guardian draw their ideology from a combination of nazism (which was anti-Semitic fascism) and stalinism (anti-Semitic marxist totalitarianism) than good-ol’ fashioned fascism, as I initially suspected.

    • Eddie

      Fascis means bundle in Latin – and gained its associations with total power from the fact that it referrred to a bundle of axes tied together that was carried or held symbolically by the Roman emperor.
      Fascism is certainly anti-individuality and pro-state control, and thus has a great deal is common with the sort of ‘commune-ism’ promoted by trades unions.

  • Troika21

    A ‘no’ and a bit of quick! look over there! What a surprise.

    He could even have dressed it up as another Israel is mean diatribe, if he wanted.

    I guess humble pie doesn’t taste very nice.

    • adamber

      The problem is he has no humility. Instead of admitting he hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about, he reverts to every anti-Israel cliche of the left.

  • http://twitter.com/mrqblank Martin Blank

    game over Owen

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