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Gerald Scarfe, anti-Semitic? No.

29 January 2013

11:10 AM

29 January 2013

11:10 AM

So, that Gerald Scarfe cartoon, then. I don’t like it much, but then I like cartoons which make me laugh, (and especially so if they have animals in them). McLachlan, Honeysett, Rowson et al – and on a daily basis of course, Matt. I’m always at a bit of a loss with those big cartoons in the broadsheets which are attempting to tell me something very meaningful and make me stroke my chin. This one made me averse because it seemed to encapsulate the shrieking hysteria of the metro-left; translated into words, it says: ‘Netanyahu is building walls out of the blood of murdered Palestinian innocents!’, which is exactly the sort of statement you could expect from, say, George Galloway, perhaps whilst he was prostrating himself before the kindly and liberal-minded leaders of Hamas.

But anti-semitic? I don’t think so. I don’t quite see that. The difference with the Ward statement (from previous blog) is pretty clear: It is Netanyahu, not ‘the Jews’ who is being held culpable. Rightly or wrongly. I assume I’m in the minority on this site and some will say this is a self-interested defence. I assure you it isn’t.


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Show comments
  • cyllan2

    i just wonder we never have similar cartoons about little children blowing themselves (and other children) up

    food for thought Rod

  • cyllan2

    you are losing the plot liddle, first the absurd piece about the RSPCA doing “their job” , and now this….what are you smoking??????

    if you think paying mega salaries to executives, killing nearly 50% of your animals in care and using the money instead to sue the PM local hunting club is cool……well you have lost me.

    and the cartoon…….dripping in blood published on memorial day , was sick, but it is ok…..they are jews ….., no wait !!!!! is only about ISRAEL!!!!!…..it is all their fault…..!!!!, nothing to do with their peace loving neighbors and their liberal charters…..

  • BorderlineFascist

    Nonce child ponce kiddie fiddler, you should check the moderwation system . we all know you are an Islamic tweerroist islamofascist kerotine coccaine smack heroinntrovenous sort of chap Eddie Sarah mad bitch crazy man batfucked man fascist

  • BorderlineFascist

    fuck off then

  • BorderlineFascist

    my comment is awayting moderwayshion

  • BorderlineFascist

    blaaa phfooooweyto be honestblaawotsitblaaasheeeetseeabowtsheeeet woteh?Livewrpool, I’m not sure eh?

    • BorderlineFascist

      quite so

  • BorderlineFascist

    quite frankly_I’m glad Baron is back

    • BorderlineFascist

      you know Baron , all the mush and the bullshit- you have seen it all my old blogging friend- I’ll see you up there!

      • BorderlineFascist

        aye

  • Baron

    You right, young Liddle, the thing isn’t anti-semitic, just lacking imagination and close to vulgar, most od the Scarfe’s offerings are like that.

    The artist, if this is what he thinks he is, should be free to draw whatever he likes, the ST free to publish whatever they like, the punters free to either buy the stuff or not. For Baron, the cartoon was the last straw, the barbarian cancelled his subscription. Martin Ivens may like to sculpt the rag into a conus shape, and stick it, he should know where, preferably the pointed end first.

  • arnoldo87

    The point about Scarfe (and, for that matter, his Times Group stable-mate, Brookes) is that he believes he has the right to fulminate against bloodshed wherever he sees it. Thus he has produced almost identical cartoons over the past few years illustrating his oh-so-keenly felt distress at the slaughter in both Iraq and Syria. Those bastards Blair Bush and Assad, you know – all monsters!
    The fact that one lot of bloodshed resulted from a Western intervention and the other a lack of Western intervention seems to have escaped him. It doesn’t matter to him – all that counts is that he piously sees the human disasters from a position of not having to take any decisions, or even consider the difficulties of taking those decisions.
    But this is the blessing of being a political cartoonist – you get to be angry with everyone without any comeback.
    Like Ian Hislop, really.

  • Augustus

    ” It is Netanyahu, not ‘the Jews’ who is being held culpable.”

    With a blatantly anti-Semitic theme and motif. And on International Holocaust Remembrance Day of all days. It’s desperately important to support the world’s only real leader at present. That leader is Netanyahu. He is a principled man who loves not only his country, but freedom and civilization as most of us know it — and nearly all of us take for granted. It’s fitting that a leader of Israel, a plucky little nation whose people live literally on the edge of daily catastrophe, would be the one to lead the charge against those who brought about 9/11. The stakes are high. Iran is no Soviet Union. If Iran gains nuclear weapons, it will, with certainty, use them for purposes of blackmail and/or annihilation. Nobody seriously disputes this, but most are evading it. We all enjoy safety
    only so long as terrorists – specifically Islamic terrorists – decide to let it be that way. It could change in an instant, and their options will massively increase once Iran, the chief state sponsor of terrorism, has nuclear weapons.

    • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

      I seriously dispute it.

      Any commentator with knowledge of Iran disputes it too.

      The Iranian leadership are not stupid, they are shrewd. They have rightly identified that membership of the nuclear club buys you exemption from interference in your affairs. They have no desire to ensure mutual nuclear destruction by attacking a nuclear armed Israel (which would have the backing of NATO as a major non NATO ally). But they do what to ensure they can never suffer the same fate as their neighbours in Iraq.

      As for the Netanyahu hero worship. Well, OK. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

      • Augustus

        “Any commentator with knowledge of Iran disputes it too.”

        An Iran with nukes is dangerous for precisely the reason Israel’s nukes are not dangerous: The Iranian regime is unstable – like Pakistan and North Korea – and using nukes to give it an artificial solidity only means loose marbles will have to be collected when it inevitably falls over.

      • Daniel Maris

        This shows your naviety. Fidel Castro made clear he was willing to get involved in a nuclear war and a Russian Captain wanted to launch one at American ships in the US blockade. The Iranians have a millenarian belief system and having survived 1400 years of persecution as Shias think they can survive anything.

        • cyllan2

          i mean you cant beat mutual assured destruction if you are going to paradise to be treated like a god by 70 virgins…forever , and be a hero to your surviving family

  • Robert Taggart

    If GAS be an anti-semite – on the basis of this brilliant cartoon – then Moi be an anti-semite and proud to be one !

    • Daniel Maris

      I think we see where you’re from, Mein Herr.

      • Robert Taggart

        Oh contraire, methinks you display where you come from.
        Moi ? – could not give a ‘flying fig’ for either side !

        • BorderlineFascist

          Love you always Robert- I remember your excellent sculptures and drawings in the seventies!!- Good to see your still talking sense!

    • BorderlineFascist

      bollocks robert!

      • Robert Taggart

        Foreskin BF !

  • http://www.facebook.com/roger.hudson.946 Roger Hudson

    I assume some people got out their old copies of ‘Der Sturmer’ from the mid thirties, didn’t I read that one of their cartoonists was Jewish?
    Seriously, the Netanyahu ( God given?) clan are a bad lot, just read what Max Hastings wrote about the time he was paid to write a hagiography of Yonatan ,Bib’s brother. They are from the Jabotinsky wing of Zionism,who thing very badly of Arabs to put it politely.

    Israel took a wrong turn (lurch to the right) when the Jabostinsky revisionists like Begin and Shamir, both true terrorists, got elected.
    I fear Bibi N. has a very itchy button finger.No exposure, even a cartoon, can be strong enough against him.
    At least Scarfe hasn’t been threatened with a Fatwa.

    • Daniel Maris

      I think it’s the “at least” which is indicative of really some fundamental dislike of or distaste for Israel that seems to go deeper than just not liking the policies of a UN Member state. When has any sizeable number of people in Israel issued and attempted to carry out a death threat against an artist.

      That said, I agree Israel has taken a wrong turn. But let’s keep a sense of proportion. Is it any more wrong than the USA hanging on to territory it took off Mexico in the 1840s, or Spain refusing to give Mellila and Ceuta back to the Moroccans?

  • lotte678

    “To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize”

    Voltaire.

    • Matt Pryor

      Quite. Peace be upon him, and all that.

  • pat

    @ Cazzie

    I wonder how many Pal Christians living in gaza or the west bank you know?

    I know quite a number – yes Israel’s policies and actions make their
    life difficult. But when you ask them why their life is difficult and
    who is really to blame – guess what they blame FATAH/HAMAS and radical
    Islamics.

    But with your beliefs would you accept the clear evidence ??

    • Matt Pryor

      There is a Palestinian Christian lady who managed to get asylum in the UK and is now giving talks on just how horrible things are for them under the PA and Hamas. You would be astonished at the level of abuse they suffer. If your church group, synagogue or mosque is interested in having her speak then please let me know and I’ll get you the email address of the organisers.

      • http://twitter.com/cazziemacca Caz

        This is a clear attempt to cover up the truth. Stop it.

        • adamber

          No – yours is a clear attempt to rewrite what is blindingly obvious. The ONLY country in the Middle East with a growing Christian population is Israel – in every Arab land, the Christians are in sharp decline. Indeed, during the past 12 months, several hundred thousnad Copts have fled Egypt, amidst church burnings and murder and mayhem – not that you’d know from the media.

        • Matt Pryor

          Erm, no, it isn’t. It’s the opposite. The truth is covered up by Hamas and the PLO. Neither of the two Palestinian governments allow a free press and both persecute people who speak out relentlessly and use torture, blackmail and false imprisonment to silence political dissent.

          Christians have pretty much been driven out of Gaza by Hamas and their numbers have dwindled dramatically in PLO-controlled areas since Israel ceded control to them. The only country in the entire middle east whose Christian population has increased is Israel.

    • http://twitter.com/cazziemacca Caz

      This is not true. An american friend who is a christian has just returned from the West Bank. I believe her over you. In fact I followed her experiences online while she was there so nice try but fail. The Palestinian christians are suffering because of the occupation and the wall and the land grabs and the brutal crackdowns by the IDF.

  • pat

    I wonder how many Pal Christians living in gaza or the west bank you know?

    I know quite a number – yes Israel’s policies and actions make their life difficult. But when you ask them why their life is difficult and who is really to blame – guess what they blame FATAH/HAMAS and radical Islamics.

    But with your beliefs would you accept the clear evidence ??

  • OldSlaughter

    In of itself, perhaps not. But it is simply too reminiscent of standard anti-semitic propaganda to be ignored as such.

  • cezanne

    Gerald Scarfe is brilliant! Leave him alone.

    The Isreali prime minister gets the same treatment everyone gets, and he appears to deserve it. Critics of this cartoon should stop pleading the anti-semitism card. We all know that phrase has another horrific context.

    Cartoons can be deemed to be anti many things – and if that person happens to be a prime minister, then people might assume (probably wrongly) that the cartoon summarises a whole country or ‘race’. That’s just silly. But satire can be biting, hard-nosed and blunt. It only ‘works’ if there’s truth in it. Yes, there’s probably a ‘line in the sand’ somewhere over which one should not err, but if you believe in free speech then…

    I’m sure Mr Scarfe doesn’t do the timing of the print, he’s the creative ideas man, not a publisher. Well done Scarfe, I’m 100% behind you. Thanks, Fellow creative.

  • AndrewMelville

    I finally saw the cartoon – thanks, Rod – it’s clearly a shot at Netanyahoo. By extension it criticizes Israeli policy toward the Occupied Territories and the Palestinians. But anti-Semitic? Not on your nelly. It’s perfectly valid commentary – with which not all will agree. What a tempest in a teapot. Yawn. Next.

  • Matt Pryor

    It has antisemitic elements such as the blood of innocents and Netanyahu’s big nose. It was published on Holocaust Memorial Day which is immensely offensive to anyone who cares about such matters, not just Jews.

    But more to the point, please can someone tell me – when did it become okay for non-Jews to decide what is and what isn’t offensive to Jews?

    Gays get to decide what’s offensive to gays. Black people get to decide what’s offensive to black people. Muslims get to decide what’s offensive to Islam.

    But when it comes to Jews, they don’t tell us, we tell them.

    Something wrong there I think.

    • rodliddle

      I think you’ll find, Matthew, that I occasionally question the uber sensitivity of those other groups you mention. Just now and again, mind.

      • Curnonsky

        Yes, it’s your entertainingly iconoclastic persona and all that. But these are serious issues so perhaps you could set the act aside for a moment?

      • Matt Pryor

        Thanks for the reply Rod, and I don’t disagree.

        But the point I was trying to make is that if the Board of Deputies of British Jews said this cartoon had antisemitic connotations…

        http://www.bod.org.uk/live/content.php?Item_ID=130&Blog_ID=712

        …as a mere gentile I would be more inclined to take their word for it than a fellow gentile such as yourself. The suggestion by some that the Jewish community is merely pretending to be upset so that they can silence criticism of Israel is grossly unfair and in itself antisemitic, if you ask me.

        I have no idea why the word “coloured” is offensive to black people, being a pasty white person myself, but I take their word for it that it is, and wouldn’t use it in public discourse out of general decency and sensitivity.

        Do you see my point?

        You may also be interested to know a bit of Jewish history which is relevant. As you probably know, the Pharaoh of Egypt instructed midwives to kill all male Jewish children. He then had the babies burned in Egyptian furnaces. The bricks were supplied by Hebrew slaves. If the slaves failed to meet their quota of bricks, Jewish children were used to plaster the gaps. This is all part of the history of the Passover celebration, and you can read more here if you’re interested:

        http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2011/04/15/passover-5771-2011/

        • rodliddle

          yes, I see the point but I don’t agree with it. The Society of Black Lawyers, for example, can show you racism in a handful of dust, but it doesn’t mean we have to concur.

          • Matt Pryor

            Fair enough Rod. I still reserve my right to be pissed off about it, because I think it was a vile attack against Israel on Holocaust Memorial Day, and I won’t be renewing my Times sub any time soon.

            Cheers for the discussion!

  • http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

    Do a lot of the readers suffer with Alzheimers?
    Do they not remember the Palestinian suicide attacks and bombings that followed the launching of their intifada in 2001? This was AFTER Barak had offered them over 90% of their original lands as a starting point to a peace treaty.

    Since the building of this FENCE, as the majority of it is, there have been very few attacks of this kind, so it has in REAL TERMS – saved lives on both sides.

    We would all like to live in a world that has no fences, no walls, no locks on doors. The reality just doesn’t make it possible. Would all those who think this cartoon is truly justified if they opened up all the prisons and let the murderers, robbers, thieves, and violent criminals back into society?

    I doubt it, which shows your true hypocrisy, and that whether you believe it or not, the fact that this didn’t already occur to you, shows that deep down you are anti-Semitic.

  • pat

    I am not brain washed by some faith or other, neither am I deluded. My comments are fact/evidence based!

    What are your views based on – blind faith dogma?

  • pat

    Then you should know better – or have you an undeclared vested interest? I wonder what that might be?

  • Cazzie

    Here comes the tsunami.

    • pat

      @ Cazzie A bit of a ‘clever clogs’ aren’t you? Ever lived in the Middle East or are you just glued to your armchair?

      • Cazzie

        Yes I have indeed been there. I am extremely familiar with this topic.

        • adamber

          For “extremely familiar” read “very well indoctrinated with lies”.

    • BorderlineFascist

      tsunami of what exactly?

  • http://twitter.com/ohsnapitsdana دانة طاهر

    I love you!

  • pat

    The cartoon offers a very unbalance, politically biased and shallow opinion of
    regional events, that are not in context. Israel is just the size of Wales,
    where 5.7 million Jewish people live surrounded and opposed by 360 million
    Arabs. In addition there are 1.7 billion Islamics worldwide, many of whom seek
    Israel’s annihilation – blatant calls for the ‘ethnic cleansing’ of what is now
    Israel (e.g. Iran, new Egyptian President)!

    Some public domain data:
    Israel is 8,300 sq. miles in size, about the size of Wales. The Arab League
    nations in total are 5,400,000 sq. miles in size, a ratio of approx. 1:651

    Israel’s population is 5.7 million – Jewish
    The Arab League
    population is 360 million, a ratio of approx. 1:63

    Worldwide there are
    16 million Jews approximately.
    Worldwide there are 1.7 billion Moslems
    approximately, a ratio of approx. 1:106

    Even ignoring the immense power
    of oil wealth and the polished, fabulously funded Islamic world propaganda
    machine; Israel is very much the oppressed underdog!

    • Cazzie

      Yer right 😉

    • Cazzie

      Pat. Please tell your employer that you need a new script because the old one isn’t working anymore.

    • Maat

      “Israel is very much the oppressed underdog”, your now know as “deluded pat”

  • pat

    A cartoon published in The Sunday Times on 27th January 2013, would be very
    offensive at the best of times. That it has appeared on Holocaust Memorial Day
    is an utter disgrace.

    The cartoon is by Gerald Scarfe, the caption
    reads: “Israeli Elections… Will Cementing Peace Continue?” A hideous looking
    Netanyahu caricature is shown building a wall cemented with blood, crushing
    Palestinians including women and children. Is rael’s security barrier (of which
    the vast majority is a fence and not a wall) is meant to protect Israeli
    civilians against Palestinian terrorism – no terrorism, no need for a wall. In
    any case, the imagery of this cartoon amounts to gross disrespect on a day when
    the millions of victims of the Holocaust are remembered. As a consultant who has
    spent much time in the Middle East; including Jordan, Israel, The West Bank/Gaza
    and Egypt; I find the views and analysis behind the cartoon naively ignorant,
    but also possibly criminally inciting armchair politics that are likely to
    encourage hatred, hate crimes and antisemitism.

    Pat

    • Cazzie

      Can I take it, Anna and Pat, that the troops have been mobilised?

    • rodliddle

      Pat: hideous caricature. yes, that is what cartoonists do. You know?

      • Curnonsky

        Yes, often in the service of the ugliest causes – you know?

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          I guess you have your own definition of the “ugliest causes”.

          In this case the “ugly cause” is to illustrate Scarfe’s opinion that a hard line Netanyahu will spill as much Palestinian blood as is necessary to secure Israel. You may not agree, I’m not sure I agree either, but it’s a point of view that isn’t outside the mainstream.

  • Simeon Howell

    It’s fair to criticize Israel if done so with balance. I have long since felt though that the criticism Israel experiences is far from balanced. This could well be morphing into a new form of antisemitism, it is after all a Jewish state.

    • Cazzie

      Its a racist state. I’m all for a secular non-racist state for all. People don’t have to move. They have to change.

      • Eddie

        Cazzie – in Israel, Arabs and Christians and atheists can get jobs and even become high court judges. They can live free and unpersecuted in Israel, so long as they abide by civilised values and laws.

        Tell me – how many Jewish high court judges are there in the Muslim countries surrounding Israel? How many free Christians,. Jews and and atheists?
        You are supporting the fascists of the modern age, Cazzie, and you are just too thick to see it. It’s ignorant twerps like you who have to change.

      • Simeon Howell

        It is not a racist state. You don’t know your history correctly you have proven this by your previous ludicrous posts. South Africa was a racist state. Israel most certainly is not

      • C. Gee

        “Palestine” will be a secular non-racist state for all?

    • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

      And Britain is technically a Christian state with the CofE the established church. Yet criticism of Britain is not de facto criticism of Anglican Christians any more than criticism of President Assad is criticism of Muslims.

      Is Netanyahu uniquely immune to the scrutiny of a free press? Israel after all holds itself up as the only modern democracy in the region, indeed it’s modern democracy is to be applauded. But one could hardly argue that Israel has been without support from the west since its inception (and rightly so), military and financial aid have been plentiful – we even turned a blind eye while they obtained nuclear weapons. But Israel has systematically squandered international goodwill with its intransigence and of late an increasingly hard line attitude which isolates it and is perceived by the international community as throwing previous support back in their faces.

      Stifling debate with the lazy conflation of anti-Semitism and criticism of the nation state of Israel will further isolate Israel, frustrate the international community and make a solution to the ongoing conflict less likely. After all, we all feel the aftershocks of that conflict all the way from 9/11 to 7/7 to Afghanistan and Mali.

      • Noa

        There’s that presumptive “We”, yet again.

        And what debate has been stifled by ‘the lazy conflation of anti-Semitism and criticism of the nation state of Israel..?”
        This column and the rainbow of opinion it has provoked demonstrate the contrary.

        If, as you claim, Israel will be further isolated, it will not be be because libertarians, both Jews and non-Jews, object to Scarfe’s depiction its President but because of the success of Islamic propaganda in demonising the Middle East’s only secular democracy.

      • adamber

        Who is “stifling” debate, and how do they do this? I haven’t noticed a lack of debate about Israel – indeed, we’re positively obsessed with it.

        • Daniel Maris

          Quite. This is a separate argument over whether Scarfe’s cartoon referenced anti-semitic imagery.

  • anna

    has this scarfe depicted any caricature about the fact that just over the last 2 years assad killed and continues to kill more arabs than a number of arabs who died in the entire arab-israeli conflict/wars. over 65 years?!

    like an old saying says about typical scarfes, ” more than you love arabs, you have to hate jews/”netanyahus” ”

    oh no, scarfe is not antisemitic – he is just a “humanist” who “cares very very” much about arab lives…

    • Cazzie

      Yes. Apparently he did one just like that last week.

      • anna

        if yes at all, i guess he “undoubtwdly” stressed the idea that a single arab leader is capable to massacre in 2 years such number of his citizens that even over 65 years of the arab-israeli conflict there haven’t been so many arab victims.

        and then go and accuse israel of genocides, massacres, blood libels…

      • Matt Pryor

        Suggesting that the elected prime minister of a democratic country is somehow comparable to a dictator in a brutal police state is frankly ludicrous.

  • sarah

    “The difference with the Ward statement is pretty clear: It is Netanyahu, not ‘the Jews’ who is being held culpable. Rightly or wrongly.”

    Rather simplistic way of looking at things.

    Even if one doesn’t don’t know who Netanyahu is, one’ll be drawing down on one’s archetypes, filed under “primordial fear”, subsection “racist stereotype”, subsubsection “Semitic”. Often it’s not necessary to put in the work on the prejudice front yourself, you can just reuse other people’s.

    “I assume I’m in the minority on this site.”
    For thinking it encapsulates the shrieking hysteria of the metro-left? Amongst Spectator writers and readers? Err, does not compute.

    For saying the cartoon is not anti-Semitic? Still confused. Who would disagree that the cartoon is Anti-Semitic when it presents the delicious opportunity of talking about what Jews are probably like while basking in the glow of social acceptability?

    “some will say this is a self-interested defence”
    Still confused. What is the Rod Liddle:cartoon connection? Apart from obviously my self-published series: The Adventures of Danger Rod and the Harridans of Sauron.

    • rodliddle

      I write for the paper that published it, Sarah.

      • sarah

        Disappointing. I was picturing you illustrating of an evening.

        • rodliddle

          I don’t know why you have to pretend to be so purblind and absolutist, Sarah. It derails your arguments which are often sound. I didn’t see much racial stereotyping in Scarfe’s depiction and my reference to being in a minority was with regard to this site’s general pro-Israeli leaning.

          • sarah

            It’s the Xanax; I’m often nearly comatosed.

            Despite this, my arguments are always sound.

            For example, here’re two:
            As you know, what you see depends on what you know. If Jews are saying they see anti-Semitism (and they are), chances are people who say they don’t see it aren’t looking with the same eyes as Jews and a bit of humility wouldn’t go amiss. A bit of “what are you seeing that I’m not seeing?”, “what have I internalised, that you don’t want to?”

            It’s only Douglas Murray on this site who is genuinely (for the time-being at least) pro-Israeli because he has an eye on a career in politics. Everyone else just does it because the alternative would be being pro-Pakistani immigrant, and practically nobody is pro that except George – go to sleep – Galloway (for the time-being at least) because he has an eye on a career in politics. Ultimately because he’s at that awkward age where he would be unemployable elsewhere. The site may have a pro-Israeli leaning, but it also has a pro-freedom-of-expression/censor your rivals via the medium of self-entitled, willfully blind, aggression, leaning which (for the time-being at least) cartoonists have become totemic of.

            I didn’t get the Sunday Times this week, so I didn’t see the cartoon in situ and I wouldn’t have looked at it anyway cos I only read your column, A.A.Gill’s, Mrs Mills and have a quick scan for women’s football news (so far no luck). So, I genuinely thought we might cross paths on a art workshop in Tuscany.

            Obviously not genuinely.

            My writing style and argument development tend to mirror what I see; every now and again somebody catches their reflection.

            That’s my Andalusian poetry workshop paying off.

            • http://twitter.com/AlfTupperDarlin AlfTupperDarlin

              Keep taking the tablets and don’t give up the day job.

              • rodliddle

                someone employs her???????????????????????

            • Noa

              “.. and have a quick scan for women’s football news…”

              What? Not the rugby? and in the Times too?

              And the ladies are doing well at the moment, very well…

            • BorderlineFascist

              I love you though sarah, it takes all sorts

          • cyllan2

            “my reference to being in a minority was with regard to this site’s general pro-Israeli leaning.”

            and that is a bad thing????

    • Cazzie

      When people draw caricatures of The Queen does everyone assume we are all exactly like her?

      The funniest thing is that now the hysterical crowd have got…well…hysterical…a zillion more people will have seen the cartoon and be asking about what it actually means and what IS actually happening to the Palestinians. They will have scored an own goal.

      • rodliddle

        yes. This.

    • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

      Speak for yourself Sarah

  • laurence

    Now Rod, see what you’ve started? Matt is, indeed, a much better cartoonist.

  • Maat

    It’s a fair depiction of what’s going on and it’s not at all anti-Semitic

  • Mike

    To appropriate the tropes of 1930s antisemitic cartoons for an anti-Israel cartoon is just how ironic-postmodern-metro-lefties celebrate Holocaust Memorial Day.

    • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

      Scarfe used exactly the same style he’s been using throughout his very long career to suggest that Netanyahu builds Israeli security on the blood of Palestinian people. That’s all. No borrowed tropes.

      Sadly the timing of the publication (editorial mistake by the ST) provided an opportunity for the accusations of anti-Semitism.

      • adamber

        But Mark, it’s a lie – no Palestinian has been killed by the security barrier.

  • Barry M. Watson

    AIPAC [Zionist apologists Inc.!]comes to the UK!

    The usual knee jerk reaction to any criticism of Israel!

    Most of the people who condemn Scarfe [The Semi Detached Israeli apologists living in the UK ] have no idea of the truth of the 40 odd years of brutal Israeli military occupation in Palestine!

  • http://twitter.com/judyk113 judyk113

    Yes, and no doubt if a football hooligan who made ape noises at Ashley Cole and threw bananas at him said he wasn’t being racist because he was just criticizing Cole, not black people in general, you’d agree.

    If a cartoonist drew a cartoon of Obama dressed in a grass skirt with a bone through his nose waving a spear as drones go killing off people in Afghanistan and said it wasn’t being racist because he was criticizing Obama not black people in general, you’d agree.

    No doubt you think Shakespeare’s “Merchant of Venice” does not portray Shylock in an antisemitic way, because he was just criticising a fictional Jewish moneylender Shylock, not Jews in general.

    You also ignore the specifically anti-semitic gratuitous elements introduced by Scarfe into the cartoon, such as depicting Netanyahu with a huge bulbous nose which he doesn’t have in real life (he usually caricatures his targets by elongating and sharpening their noses to virtual spear points).

    You also play down the specific relevance of depicting Netanyahu in terms of clearly and furtively relishing murdering innocents in the most gruesome way possible by walling them up alive to squash the life out of them. This is the strongest of links to the central anti-semitic characterization of Jews, derived from the blood-libel, which is that they require the death of Christians and others to provide the blood for their rituals and sustenance, and that this blood is required to be extracted from a living victim, towards whom the Jew-murderer is either indifferent or positively rejoices in the agony of the victim. The portrayal of Shylock in The Merchant of Venice as gratuitously requiring the murder of his victim via extracting a pound of flesh from his living body is the best known of English literature’s repertoire of the blood libel applied to the routine doings of Jews. And of course it also feeds the anti-semitic concept of Jews as an exceptionally bloodthirsty people who victimise and murder others who stand in their way and are totally unrepentant about it.

    Just about Netahyahu? And the fact of all these historical stereotypes being embedded in Christian art down the ages and now being the daily stuff of Arab and Muslim media cartoons, and appearing in official propaganda from their regimes? How naive do you think you are?

    • SirMontyThreepwood

      Ah – I see….. One cannot criticise the conduct of an Israeli Prime Minister without being an anti-Semite, especially if there is any blood involved. The thing about this is that the Israeli State has according to the Israeli human rights organisation B’Tselem, killed over 6500 Palestinians since 2001, half of them according to B’Tselem, innocent of any hostile action, and 1300 of them minors.

      What troubles me about this is that the President of Israel, Mr Perez, only two weeks ago announced that the Netanyahu government was a hindrance to peace and was sidelining Abbas, who Perez, the President assured us was an honest partner. Perhaps Mr Perez is a ‘self loathing Jew’, the disparaging term dragged up to smear those Israelis and Jews who oppose the agenda of extremist Zionists like Lieberman and Netanyahu.

      Your pathetic dragging up of almost medieval anti-Semitic slurs against Jews and then likening Scarfe’s cartoon to them is unconvincing and dishonest. Scarfe’s cartoon is without doubt a criticism of Netanyahu. It isn’t pretty, and it isn’t flattering, but why should it be? He is a monster.

    • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

      He caricatures by exaggeration. Everyone gets the same brutal treatment.

      It’s about the actions of a politician, a leader. Scarfe’s opinion is that Israeli security is built on the blood of the Palestinian people. He represented that opinion in a cartoon. Simple as that. Not anti-Semitic, anti-Netanyahu. A brutal expression of opinion in a free press. If you don’t like his point then offer a counter argument but trying to stamp on his right to free speech with baseless claims of anti-Semitism and reference to 600 year old plays help nobody.

      • Noa

        Like you, he is mono-faceted, given to obnoxiousness and humourless to the point of infinty.

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          Gosh, and I’d just apologised for an earlier posting too.

          That hurts man.

          • Noa

            I apologise in turn and have amended my post accordingly.

            • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

              Ah, are we going to co-exist?

              Or will we have to move to a “2 comment board” solution.

              • Noa

                Mark. This is a wall, and there is also one in Israel.

                It is there to preserve the peace and one is free to post whatever one wants on it.
                But only on the Western side.

    • Cazzie

      Read ‘Four reasons why U.K. cartoon of Netanyahu isn’t anti-Semitic in any way’
      in Ha’artez (Israeli newspaper) http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/four-reasons-why-u-k-cartoon-of-netanyahu-isn-t-anti-semitic-in-any-way.premium-1.496880

      • adamber

        Is that the same Haaretz whose editor said “Israel needs a good raping”? That Haaretz?

    • rodliddle

      Hyper sensitive conspiracy theory lunacy and a gift to israel’s enemies.

      • http://twitter.com/judyk113 judyk113

        Lunacy, eh? Hyper sensitive? All very traditional ways of putting down those who call out racism and misogyny. Also useful for avoiding responding to the evidence and arguments discussed. A gift to Israel’s enemies? Funny that they regularly publish cartoons using the same iconography referred to here, and never publish refutations demonstrating why they’re antisemitic.

      • Simeon Howell

        What are you trying to say here?

  • Ringstone

    If a cartoonist isn’t upsetting SOMEONE, he’s probably doing it wrong!

  • aytekin

    Guilty. Because it reflects the truth …

  • Cazzie

    ANYONE…and I mean ANYONE who demonstrates even a shimmer of empathy for the Palestinians gets called an anti-semite. Please file that under ‘Important things to remember’.

    • adamber

      So empathy for Palestinians means demonising Israelis?

  • Cazzie

    Can we all agree to support the youth movement in Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) that seeks to shake off the occupation by means of all kinds of non-violent actions. Support and strengthen them, and if Israel kicks off and gets more violent all will finally be clear to all. The apologists for Israeli policies already don’t have a leg to stand on amongst those in the know. Help grow that awareness. Stick to humanitarian principles and if you get called and anti-semite just shrug it off, move on and keep going.

  • Macky Dee

    The Israelis building on land that is in dispute shows that Israel doesn’t really give a f**k about the Palestinians , or the fact they are breaking the law. But Hey – Who says what to the Israelis? They do what they want, f**k everyone else!

    • zakisbak

      Israel doesn’t really give a f**k about the Palestinians –
      The Arabs really love the Jews though.Each missile,each racist book,each “martyr”.

      land that is in dispute –
      Yes,it is.
      Why,exactly,shouldn’t Jews live there?
      Should it be Jew free like the virtually rest of the Arab/Muslim world?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country

      • Cazzie

        I think co-existence will be the future…but that requires Israelis to look at their own racism and do something about it. The two state solution is dead you see so its probably the only answer. Perhaps the diehard racists who don’t like sharing can start up somewhere else.

        • Eddie

          Co-existence? Well, there used to be loads of Jewish communities throughout the region, from Iraq and Iran to Syria and Egypt and the rest. They all got chucked out for racist reasons. Now the Jew-haters want them out of Israel too.
          It seems that all Muslims in middle eastern countries are die-hard racists according to your logic. I’m not disagreeing with you…

          • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

            Yes, it was unfortunate that Israel’s neighbors blamed their Jewish populations for the actions of the state of Israel.

            That’s what happens when you conflate Judaism and Israel.

            • Cazzie

              That’s the trap David Ward fell into. You don’t fall into it again. The trap was set deliberately I might add and they are stepping up their efforts to try to catch more decent people out. I’ll tell you something, when you get accused of being anti-semitic when you are anti-racist the reaction is outrage. It makes you doubly determined to stand up for human rights when you realise how manipulative the whole thing is. You just don’t use certain words anymore. It’ll backfire on them.

              • adamber

                Yes, if only he’d said “Zionists” instead of Jews, his bigotry would have been perfectly acceptable.

                • Curnonsky

                  “Neo-cons” is another favorite euphemism.

                • Eddie

                  True. It would have been legal because the word Zionist is not covered by the Race Relations Act.
                  Which is why the anti-semitic Islamists call for Zionists to be murdered and destroyed, and why they blame Zionists for all evil in the world, and why they accuse Zionists of eating babies…
                  Oh the joy of language!
                  (PS Shhh, keep it quiet, but I think by ‘Zionists’ they mean ‘Jews’….)

            • Eddie

              Mark – the surrounding Muslims states, as soon as they were independent and not run by the civilising forces of European empires, chucked out the Jews. You seem to support this ethnic cleansing and do not campaign for these people to be allowed to return to their homelands.
              Well, it’s nice that you have at last come out as a racist. Now we know where we stand. It’s all clear now…

            • adamber

              Utter rot – the Arab pogroms against Jews predate the existence of Israel.

          • Daniel Maris

            And now they are finishing off the Christian communities. Most of the Hindu communities have been erased as well. The Buddhists are long gone.

        • adamber

          Cazzie, racist attitudes amongst Palestinians are running at 97% according to Pew – it’s hard to get 97% of people to agree on anything – except hating Jews it seems.

    • Cazzie

      Precisely. But that can’t last.

    • Eddie

      Machy Dee – maybe because there are no such people as ‘Palestinians’ or a place called ‘Palestine’ – except under a few short years of British rule. Most of those in Gaza are Egyptians and Syrians. Maybe they should go home eh?

      • Cazzie

        The majority of the people of Gaza are descending from people driven out of the area now called Southern Israel.

        • Eddie

          And a huge number of Jewish people are descended from those who lived in places now called Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Jordan etc until they were forced out by ethnic cleansing. Can they do home now too?

          The people in Gaza are mostly Syrians, none are natives really, and no doubt support the Islamists trying to destroy the tolerant secularism of that country and massacre its Christians and Druze.

          Needless to say the Arab world could solve the Gaza issue overnight by allowing these refugees back home. But they don’t. Why? Because the Muslims WANT to keep Gaza as an overcrowded hellhole so they can fabricate the lie to the world that the Jews created it and maintain it.

          The Arabs are entirely to blame here.

          • Cazzie

            I support the Gaza Youth (loose term for the new generation of politically savvy activists committed to creative non-violent ways of resistance and protest against the occupation, the land grab and the wall). They are inspirational. You should too. If you are honest about wanting a happy ending. A happy ending requires a win-win.

            • Eddie

              Cazzie – you have swallowed the Islamist lie hook, line and sinker.
              You are supporting a terrorist, antisemitic organisation whose aim is the destruction of Israel and all Jews, and who are no doubt funded by Saudi Wahabi oil money. (One wonders why you are so concerned about Israel and not the many abuses taking place in Muslims states, of Africa or Asia too…. just a coincidence is all I am saying, and a fashion of course for young ignorant lefties trying so hard to fit in and be cool…)
              Tell me, when are you having your apartment makeover? Red, white and black are really funky colours, aren’t they?

          • Cazzie

            ‘Can they do homw now too?’ Why not? If they want to we can all support that too.

          • Simeon Howell

            It’s pointless Eddie you are banging your head against a brick wall. Cazzie being the wall.

        • adamber

          Nonsense.

        • Daniel Maris

          A lot of “Palestinians” are descended from Imperialists who settled there: Turks. Should they get out? If not, why not?

  • zakisbak

    Maybe not anti-semitic,(in the opinion of some).
    But he definitely does want the defence barrier,which definitely prevents Jews being murdered,to be “torn down”.
    This idea makes him very happy – http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/charles-moore/2013/01/charles-moore-on-the-witlessness-of-gerald-scarfe/

    I’m sure I’m going to look a fool when someone posts a link to one of his cartoons showing a Palestinian as a bloodthirsty racist…..

    • Cazzie

      Probably because most of them are not racists. They don’t like their oppressors, but that’s natural. They wouldn’t like their oppressors if they were Eskimoes.

      • http://www.facebook.com/ilana.walsh Ilana Walsh

        Not quite true – they don’t have anything like the same animosity to other Muslims or Arabs who oppress them (in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc.).

      • adamber

        Cazzie, facts don’t agree with you – a Pew Research Centre study found that 97% of Palestinians hold specifically antisemitic views. Official Palestinian media is full of antisemitic imagery and violence against Jews is glorified. Hamas, which is now by far the most popular Palestinian political movement, has in its charter the openly declared intention of committing genocide against every last Jew on earth. Oh, and Fatah is led by a Holocaust denier Abbas. But no, no problem with racism at all.
        How many more excuses do you wish to conjure up?

      • Eddie

        No, you are a racist as are most Muslims in the region who hate Jews, blame them and the so-called ‘Zioinist West’ for all wrong in the world as a scapegoat, and pick on them JUST like the Nazis picked on them before.
        The Palestinians as represented by Hammas are the Nazis of now.
        You are an appeaser, a coward, and a traitor to tolreant, pluralistic, liberal, civilised Enlightenment values and democracy. I wonder how long it would have taken you to betray your friends if they’d been relying on your during the war.
        Sadly, you seem to have no self-awareness about how you are being played – as you gormlessly spout what you have been told to spout by your Saudi-funded Islamist propagandists in The Labour Party. YOu should be ashamed of yourself.

  • Cazzie

    Not anti-Israel. Anti-‘nasty policies that make other people’s lives an utter misery’.

    • Eddie

      But in that case why not focus on the ‘nasty policies that make other people’s lives a misery’ which are enacted on a daily basis in every single Muslim country – not to mention most in Asia and Africa.
      Why focus solely on Israel- a country with a free press, a tolerant plutalistic system, and where evn the former PM can be convicted by a court presided over by an Arab judge?
      It just seems odd, don’t it? Especially seeing as Israel is by far the mst civilised and democratic country in that region.
      Massive abuses by the Iranians, those in Gaza, Muslims in Pakistan, north Africa, everywhere – and the usual ‘useful idiot’ suspects either stay quiet or spring to the defence of Muslims (blaming their enemies for their own atrocities in a manner typical of French socialist cowards and apologists for Nazi-ism in the 1930s).
      Just sort of suspicious really – perhaps anti-semitic, perhaps not. But certainly a stupid, inconsistent and hypocritical stance to take.

      • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

        You didn’t see his cartoon of Assad drinking the blood of children then?

        • Eddie

          Assad is different. Let’s see some cartoons of Palestinian leaders doing that then, or perhaps Mohammed himself.
          If this cartoon had offended Muslims, not Jews, there would now be riots and bombs going off. That speaks volumes about the difference between Jews and Muslims.
          And why can’t we see the Danish cartoons in our newspapers and media then? Personally, I believe in full freedom of speech and expression, and am not against any cartoon being published to illustrate a news story. Sadly, most Muslims disagree with me – apparently they believe in peace, and if you disagree with that, they’ll threaten to kill you!
          You are typical of lefties with double standards: apply the same to Jews and Muslims, to Israel and the countries surrounding it. Otherwise, your double standards prove you a hypocrite.

          • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

            Some things are culturally unacceptable. It’s sensitivity, especially in a multicultural society, not hypocrisy.

            It is absolutely culturally and religiously unacceptable for Muslims to have their prophet depicted in a cartoon. It strikes at the heart of their belief system and therefore the essence of who they are. If I know that to be the case why on earth would I deliberately do it? Would I have the right to do it? Yes. Should I do it? No. The same cannot be said for the depiction of a current day political leader like Netanyahu, the comparison is spurious.

            Lazily dribbling guff such as “Sadly, most Muslims disagree with me – apparently they believe in peace, and if you disagree with that, they’ll threaten to kill you!” is exactly the casual racism Gerald Scarfe avoided. He attacked a single politician. But you label “most Muslims” as murderous, not a president, or a regime, but “most Muslims”.

            Think on Eddie.

            • Eddie

              You are an UTTER hypocrite!

              You are allowing misplaced multiculturalist oversensitivity to turn you into a lackey of Islamofascism.

              So let me get this right: cartoons about some 7th century warlord, murderer and paedo rapist are not allowed; but cartoons mocking and demeaning all Jews in the world are?

              I and anyone else has a right to insult, demean, mock, belittle, satirise and lampoon ANY religion or historical figure – Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, the lot, plus atheists too. The way you pander to Muslim demands is truly disgusting. I have no doubt that the next step for those betraying decent civilised values is for them to begtray their countries and even theri own brothers.

              If this were 1938 you’d be blaming the West and the Jews for Hitler, no doubt.

              Damn apologist making excuses for the inexcusable. You need to seriously think about your hypocrisy, matey.

              (PS Perhaps someone should buy you Jesus and Mo for Eid or Winterval).

              • Cazzie

                Eddie give up love. You are going to get more and more illogical. You will just get yourself tied up in knots.

                • adamber

                  …said the hysterical Israel basher.

                • Eddie

                  Tell us, Cazzie, how does it feel to be a racist hypocrite who is supportiung the fascists of the modern age?

                  You are one big confused knot, Cassnadra, deary, and your opinions are utterly illogical and ignorant of history, culture, well, everything really.

                  I hope that if the Islamist Jew-haters bomb us, you and your Hammas-loving hypocrites trake the full forced of the blast.

              • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

                You didn’t read what I posted did you?

                Now, take a deep breath. Have a wee sit down. Maybe take a blood pressure pill. OK, let’s continue.

                I said quite clearly that we had the right to say what we want. I happen to believe we shouldn’t take advantage of the right just because we can. This is especially true when in doing so we’d hurt others.

                For example, I may well have the right to publish a cartoon depicting Jimmy Savile abusing children. But I wouldn’t do it because of the pain it would cause to those involved. It’s sensitivity and judgement, that’s all.

                I don’t know where in any of my posts you have got the idea that I think it’s OK to post a cartoon”mocking and demeaning all Jews in the world”. I don’t. But I do think that it is acceptable to publish a cartoon criticising one politician for one particular policy, albeit in very strong terms.

                OK?

                • Daniel Maris

                  So this is all about hurt avoidance. You’re saying gays shouldn’t mock Christians for not wanting gay marriage? Women shouldn’t mock misogynists for their pathetic harking after patriarchy? Cartoonists shouldn’t mock Osborne’s useless performance as Chancellor because it might hurt his feelings?

                  Hang on, no – you’re saying for some reason political hurt is not important. But then, what about religious leaders who are also political leaders?

            • Badly Done Emma

              I work in the art business and know that often Semitic peoples in general, muslims and jews, don’t like pictorial representations – some would say this stems from Moses and the golden calf…. Haven’t seen the cartoon and I’ve never been confident enough in my knowledge of the Middle East to have an opinion on the troubles there so should probably keep my head down…..

            • Fergus Pickering

              But I want to strike at the heart of their belief system and the essence of who they are. I want to do it repeatedly. Their belief system is vicious. I would wish it stamped out.

              • Noa

                Fergus, you get absolutely to the heart of the matter. Well said and well done.

            • adamber

              It’s unacceptable for gentiles who have murdered millions of us to hodl to standards they don’t even apply to themselves – and lie about us.

            • Daniel Maris

              Eddie was being strictly correct. Most Muslims across the planet do believe that if you insult the Prophet you should be killed. It’s what nearly every Muslim cleric on the planet is taught and teaches his congregation. How is that factual statement about a religion “racist”?

        • adamber

          Thanks for equating Assad with Netanyahu. Just what we needed.

      • Cazzie

        Because Israel is pseudo European and claims to ‘be like us’ and ‘share our values’. Because its populated with Europeans and Americans so one expects them to behave like we do and share our values like they claim. Because the viscous loud mouthed thought police are poisoning our politics and engaging in one vendetta after the other targeting people with humanitarian values in Britain? Those kinds of reasons?

        • Penny

          Actually, a sizeable number of Israelis nowadays are descendents of those who fled or were expelled from the Arab lands. They’re as indiginous to the Middle East as the Arabs themselves. And, out of curiosity, in your opinion, for how many generations must an immigrant family reside in a country before they can be deemed to be of it?

          • Cazzie

            ‘Actually, a sizeable number of Israelis nowadays are descendents of those who fled or were expelled from the Arab lands. They’re as indiginous to the Middle East as the Arabs themselves’. I know.

        • adamber

          Cazzie, who said Israel is European? May come as a surprise to the Jews booted out of Arab lands who make up the majority of Israel’s Jews.

        • Curnonsky

          I thought you were claiming to be “even-handed”? What happened – the mask slipped?

        • Daniel Maris

          Well done Eddie, Cazzie just couldn’t resist poking her head into the water on that one – snap went the crocodile. So that’s what it’s all about “Israel is pseudo European”…don’t expect the natives to behave as well as whitie…the usual racist nonsense spouted by Cazzie and her kind.

  • Noa

    Sadly, Scarfe long ago stopped being provocative, illuminating or controversial.

    He is no longer insightful, merely inciteful.

    • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

      Ooh, ooh, I see what you did there.

      A robust piece of political commentary, a snapshot of political opion in the free press. That’s all it was. What a fuss over nothing.

      • Noa

        opion?

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          Fair enough.

          My original post was a cheap shot. Have removed the sarcasm. I apologise.

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          The fatwa on the publishers of the cartoon was vile, as are all similar acts of extremism. What I fail to understand is the relevance of your post. We all know that killing people for drawing cartoons is inhuman, but what’s your point?

          Is your point, “well at least Israel doesn’t do this”? If so, that’s great. Israel doesn’t do fatwas. Super. But so what?

          The debate is whether the cartoon is anti-Semitic. I think it isn’t.
          The debate is can Israel take a bit of policy criticism without crying anti-Semitism. I think it can.

          • Noa

            Your ‘debate’ may be about antisemitism.

            However my comment was not.

            And your complete mis-understanding of it proves my point.

            • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

              Oh, I apologise. I had misread the title of the article we are discussing as “Gerald Scarfe Anti Semitic? No.” My mistake.

              As it seems to have sailed over my head, what was the point you were making?

              • Noa

                Perhaps its best that you simply concentrate on the terms of reference you have defined for yourself, rather than concern yourself unduly.

          • Matt Pryor

            I think you’ll find it was Times readers and subscribers who objected to the cartoon, and we didn’t cry antisemitism, we just voted with our feet. It was the anti-Israel crowd that cried about us “crying antisemitism”, as they always do whenever their nasty opinions get challenged.

          • Tim Reed

            “We all know that killing people for drawing cartoons is inhuman”.

            Unfortunately, there are some who DON’T see it that way. That’s why those who published the Mo’ cartoons exhibited the kind of journalistic courage all too lacking in this country.

            • Noa

              Yes,it’s that royal “we” again. Who thus speaks for us all of us and gives us our opinions of right and wrong because we can’t be allowed to chose for ourselves.
              Controlling, dictatorial and completely deluded.

            • FrenchNewsonlin

              Yes indeed . Let’s hear it for France’s Charlie Hebdo! Its cartoonists are free press heroes who deserve all the support they can get particularly as the West dumbly ignores a daily and dangerous onslaught on enlightenment values and freedom of speech .

              • Daniel Maris

                Yep I agree completely.

          • Eddie

            But Mr Forrester, you were just supporting the Islamic extremists for attacking anyone who dared mock their great (warmongering, murderig, rapist paedo) prophet – because according to you Muslims are a special case because their hero-worship of some 7th century neck-slicing kiddie fiddler is important to them, and so we muct defer to their demands.
            Why can’t we see the Danish cartoons on TV or in our newspapers, explaining the story, as we can with this cartoon.
            I think we all know the answer. Here’s a hint: Jews won’t plant bombs and kill people for a cartoon, and Muslims will and do.
            The British left has always emulated its Russian heroes in being marinated in anti-semitism – whch is why they always show knee-jerk support for Muslims and socalled Palestinians, no matter what awful fascism they promote and what terrible deeds they do.

            • Daniel Maris

              LOL Eddie. Don’t expect Wee Mark to answer any of those pertinent points.

  • Eddie

    Probably not anti-semitic, no, But very anti-Israel like the ‘metro-left’ – who tend to automatically support all brown-skinned persons (it is the Jews’ sad misfortune to generally not be Afro-Carribean or Asian in appearance).
    The question is this: why is it that the same ‘metro-lefties’ (who assume – wrongly – than they are our moral arbiters) support and praise anyone who mocks, demeans, disparages and satirises Jews (AKA Zionists AKA Israel) and sees them as a freedom-fighting liberal hero, and yet at the self same time condemns anyone who applies the same satirical spotlight on Arabs or Muslims, in the UK or in so-called ‘Muslim lands’ (when them there Jews used to live until forced out, innit), in cartoon or word form?
    Anyone who does the latter is accused of being Islamophobic, racist or – worse – a Daily Mail reader.
    Anyone who does the former is seen as a ‘right-minded liberal’ and defender of our tolerant values.
    Can anyone explain why this may be, when the Muslims hate and despise those values, and the only Middle Eastern country that abides by them is Israel?
    Mad world…

    • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

      We hold Israel to the standards of behavior that we’d expect from a the democracy they claim to be. When they fall short, we let them know. Simple as that.

      • Eddie

        Simple as that? But why pick on Israel ALL THE TIME and not even dare criticise the disgusting abuses that happen throughhout the Muslim world eh?
        Anyone would think you were biased or something.
        Nice to see that you and your Islamist mates are so fond of freedom of expression when it comes to cartoons. I look your and their full support when I draw a cartoom of Mohammed raping a 9 year old on a new Palestinian TV show called: Al-Jim’ll Fix It, Inshallah…

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          My TV screens and papers have been full of Syrian atrocity and Egytian uprising. Maybe you should turn the telly on toddle on down to the newsagent?

          You’d be very hard pushed to argue that the last 10 years has been characterised by widespread anti-Semitism in the west. If anything it’s Islamophobia that has marked the last decade.

          I’ll ignore the more troubling aspects of your post. I’m not your therapist.

          • Eddie

            Islamophobia marked the last decade? Well, it can’t have marked the last 2 or more, because the word was only invented in 1997 (by the Runnymede Trust) with the EXPRESS purpose of linking religion and race for Asian Muslims (thereby emulating Jews).
            Then they complain when people (like the BNP) do the same. Ho-hum.
            Some would argue that there is no such thing as Islamophobia, and even if people hate Islam, that might not be an irrational fear. We all have the right to hate any belief, don’t we? And that’s all Islam is.
            Judaism is a faith and a race. That is the difference.

            • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

              You have the right to hate who or what you like Eddie.

              But you have to expect to be labelled as a bigot if you hate people on the basis of their religious beliefs OR ethnicity or both.

              • Eddie

                You seem confused, Mr Forrester. YOu spew Jew-hatred here and then accuse me of being somehow bigoted for informing you and others about the etymology of the word ‘Islamophobia’ and why the word was invented.

                A belief – religious or political – is NOT the same thing as a race.
                Something lots of Muslims and their leftwing lackeys don’t quite get, is that no-one is born a Muslim, a Christian or a Liberal Democrat – therefore it is fine to hate all these beliefs and to insult, demean, mock and lampoon people for holding them. It is not bigoted or racist to do so. It is to hate people becuase of their race (ie Jews).
                You hate Jews. Come on, be a man. ADMIT IT! Leftwingers in the UK often do and have done for decades – since the Russian revolution and before. On this, they agreed with Hitler actually.
                Jews follow a faith (most though not all) and Jews are part of a race (in legal terms). Ergo you are racist as are most UK Muslims, it seems, and probably all Palestinians. Not news really is it? They dso have a Nazi-Hammas manifesto after all.

                • sic

                  Eddie, are you for real? I didn’t realise anyone could be that stupid. It’s people like you that make me question my commitment to free speech. If you believe in it, you should probably shut up.

                • Eddie

                  Americans eh… Don’t quite get this ‘intelligent debate’ ting, do they?

                • sic

                  You can only have intelligent debate with intelligent people, and that you ain’t, mate. You are a blustering, incoherent, moron who probably has no friends and no life, spending your time mouldering in some sad little hole somewhere, pestering people in places like this in a stumbling attempt to convince yourself you stand for something. I won’t be visiting again, since this forum has now gone straight to the top of my list of places not to go for said intelligent debate. Over and out.

                • Simeon Howell

                  Goodbye then

              • Daniel Maris

                So what is the correct form? Let’s see if I got this right: if you don’t like Jimmy Swaggart teachings, you nevertheless have to like JImmy Swaggart. Or is it the case you have to maintain a studied indifference. Or is it simply a matter of pretending you don’t dislike him?

                And what do you mean by “belief”. There’s passive belief and there’s active belief. What if someone who believes something wants to do something personally to you (e.g. stop you drinking alcohol, make you wear hot stifling clothing, make you honour someone you think dishonourable) – must you still pretend to like them?

        • Cazzie

          Because the Israeli government led by Netanyahu has been fully tested now to see if they do in fact support the two state solution. We find they don’t. If someone doesn’t get a grip the Palestinians will be wiped out. The situation is now chronic.

          • Eddie

            The Palestinians are NOT a race or a tribe, dear. They are all Syrians or Egyptians, so maybe they should go home eh? After all, there are so many Muslim Jew-hating countries to choose from where I am sure they’ll feel right at home. They could probably even live in homes and occupy land vacated by the Jews when they were forced out by Muslims eh?

            • Cazzie

              I’m not sure that’s relevant. They live there and so did their grandparents and their great grandparents. Talk about ‘moving the goalposts’ All you lot are so manipulative.

            • Cazzie

              But we do know that’s the planned end game. To drive the Palestinians into Jordan. Which is PRECISELY why everyone worldwide should rally round and support them to prevent that happening.

              • MaxSceptic

                Until 1923 when Britain invented the Hashemite Kingdom of TransJordan as a consolation prize for the Hashemite clan for losing Mecca to the Ibn Saud clan, Jordan was 70% of Mandatory Palestine.

              • Eddie

                Cazzie – so why don’t they go? They are not native to where they are living anyway – and the Arab world is deliberately keeping them there in awful conditions, then blaming Israel for it! (Actually theyblame the jews, not the Arab Israelis).
                Jews have ONE country to live in now in that region. There used to be Jewish communities throughout the Middle EAst, until the Jews were forced out by Arabs.
                Muslims have a choice of many moral cesspit Arab countries to choose from where they’ll feel right at home. Why focus on Israel all the time.
                Ah yes, you’re anti-semitic, like the rest of the British left. And that makes you a racist, together with your leftie hypocrite masters.

            • sarah

              Why are you calling her dear? Is it because you is sexist?

            • http://www.facebook.com/bwmc.waterhouse Benjamin Waterhouse

              and the Israelis should all go back to Manchester…

            • David Lindsay

              They or their near ancestors may have migrated within the Levant when it was as a single entity, as it naturally is. They or their near ancestors did not migrate from Bratislava or Brooklyn.

              • Eddie

                No doubt you think anyone who ends up in Britain or England from anywhere is the world is automatically British or English, but do not believe the offspring of immigrants to Israel (who ofteh had to leave anti-semitic leftie-ruled Eastern Europe) are Israeli. How odd.
                The Arabs chucked Jews out of ‘their’ countries, and that is why they need Israel – it’s time for the Muslims to vacate Israel completely and go to one of their many homelands like Syria or Jordon etc.

              • Dogsnob

                You missed out Bridlington

          • MaxSceptic

            Cazzie writes: “If someone doesn’t get a grip the Palestinians will be wiped out. The situation is now chronic”. Well, they’re certainly multiplying remarkably well for a people who are being “wiped out”.

            • Cazzie

              That’s the nastiest comment so far. Think that one through.

        • Cazzie

          PS I’m an atheist.

          • sarah

            He’s an arseholist.

            • Eddie

              Is that what feminist comedy sounds like? Oh dear…
              But Sarah, I am sure you are not an anti-semite.
              An anti-SEMENite, yeah!
              Of course you are, being a manhating weirdo who hates all men equally (Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists).
              There appears to be no schism of jism in the whole feminasty feminutsy dialectic: the screeching sisters despise all male creations, including their zygotic gametes!
              Maybe you are a sort of anti-andro-semite though?
              Down with the men (all religions and races)!
              Up with the women (ditto)!
              Off with the schmuck!
              Bye Sarah.

            • BorderlineFascist

              I’m sure you’re a nice person, like that daft cousin I have in Welling Garden City-she can’t wire up a plug who’s first husband died. Thing is Sarah I think you are a nice person. But for Christs sake please,Stop this utter rubbish

          • Simeon Howell

            Of course

        • John Steadman

          Your point about cartoons, Eddie – so bloody unanswerable, and saying so much about the hypocricy of Israel’s knee-jerk detractors.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        So you accept that you hold their neighbours to lower standards because…because….they aren’t democracies? Are you sure that’s why? Are you sure that all you are doing is letting Israel know when they ‘fall short? is that really it?

        That’s the biggest pile of disingenuous tosh I’ve seen since the PSO collective were posting here.

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          Yes thanks, I’m sure.

          Israel hold themselves to a higher standard. They have a functioning democracy and that’s to be welcomed in a region which until recently has had so few. Their democracy is one of the reasons the west supports them financially and militarily. We even turned a blind eye while they developed a nuclear weapon.They are seen as a bastion of western democratic values in the middle east. Israel itself is vociferous about being the only real democracy in the region. If you publicly declare yourself better and more virtuous than your neighbours and seek support on that basis then you have your behaviour judged on that basis too.

          The ongoing atrocities in Syria are all over our TV screens, we are well aware of the danger of the Iranian regime, the ferment in Egypt and the instability of nascent democracies after the Arab Spring. The press is not backward in commenting on the problems and abuses in the Arab world.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ilana.walsh Ilana Walsh

            And is the fact that Israel is surrounded by those atrocity-committing regimes, and frequently threatened by them, to count for nothing? Is Israel to be compared to, say, Sweden, which is threatened by… well, I don’t know, does Sweden face any external threats? Is the fact that throughout its existence Israel has had to justify – and indeed fight for – that existence to count for nothing? For all its faults, Israel’s misdeeds are of an entirely different order to those of Syria, for example, so on that score it IS more virtuous.

          • Grrr8

            I was going to write exactly what you wrote above! These points are key. Clicked the approval arrow, more approval via this comment.

          • Hexhamgeezer

            ‘The west’ funnels billions to the Palestinians which helps fund their murderous objectives. Whether through UNRWA, the UN in general, the EU, bilateral aid, or countless NGOs and idiot churches. Whatever ‘the west’ is doing in the ME, supporting democracy is not one of them.

      • Penny

        Because we’re perfect?

        Just a week or so ago, many below-the-line comments on blogs and online newspapers were expressing ire at Obama for poking his nose into our EU in/out referendum. That ire increased when an American general warned that in opting out we risked losing the Special Relationship. We got one – just one – taste of a foreign leader telling us what we should and should not do. And we didn’t like it one bit.

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          Nobody told us what to do. A question was asked and the US administration answered it. I for one am not offended by what seemed a very reasonable response from the Whitehouse.

          I don’t think anyone is telling Israel what to do. One cartoon in one newspaper expressed one opinion on a conflict that’s central to the ongoing stability of the planet. That’s the normal operation of a free press. An operation that a modern democracy such as Israel should understand and respect.

          I certainly don’t think we’re perfect. But we have a right to hold and voice our opinions on an issue that ultimately effects us a great deal.

      • Noa

        We? The royal we?

        Other than yourself, who do you think you speak for?

        Or perhaps its you that needs the therapist. As him about folie de grandeur and schizophrenia…

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          Whoa there chum! Calm down. You’ll do yourself a mischief.

          Your posts have been getting increasingly vexed and personal. Amusing though that is, I’m a wee bit concerned for your welfare.

          If my use of “we” came across as megalomaniacal I apologise. I don’t want you rupturing anything.

          • Noa

            And your concern for my health almost matches mine for yours.

            I’m very pleased indeed that a single person is emerging from the crowd…

      • Curnonsky

        Isn’t that racist – holding the whites to a higher standard?

        • BorderlineFascist

          but I am a racist

          • BorderlineFascist

            boo hiss

            • BorderlineFascist

              nasty nasty man- but Eddie is my fwend- cos he dusent like da black man

              • BorderlineFascist

                sorry Eddie- I’v been moderated mate

        • BorderlineFascist

          its just pathetic

      • Abtalyon

        You mean like those of the British soldiers currently under investigation for their deeds in Iraq?

        • http://www.facebook.com/roger.hudson.946 Roger Hudson

          The British soldiers who should never have been sent to Irak in Blairs war in the first place.

          • Abtalyon

            Was their behaviour contingent on where they were sent? Have British soldiers behaved differently elsewhere, in Northern Ireland, Kenya, Malayia or Cyprus, for example, or for that matter in Mandate Palestine? You and Mark Forrester need to abandon the holier-than-thou attitude concerning “standards.”

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          Yes, exactly like that. Held to account.

          The press were rightly all over Iraqi prisoner abuse when it came to light, the MoD have already paid out 15m and cases continue in the British courts.

          War and conflict is a mucky business and there are always those on all sides who cross the line. The difference between democracies like Israel / UK and dictatorships like Syria is that when our forces or government cross the line they are held to account.

          • Abtalyon

            I agree. However, while nobody believes that UK troops’ misdeeds there were in any way government inspired, there are many who take the reverse view when relating to any dubious actions taken by IDF soldiers. It is here that double standards operate.

      • Matt Pryor

        No doubt you invest huge amounts of energy into holding Greek society to account them, given that they’ve put a large number of neo-Nazis into parliament and that Muslim shop owners routinely get their property smashed up and burned.

        But then again, you probably don’t care about that, Greece is only the birthplace of democracy after all.

        • http://www.facebook.com/roger.hudson.946 Roger Hudson

          Whenever people tell me how nice Izmir is I remind them it was called Smyrna, a Greek town with lots of Jews who were killed or forced out in 1922/3 by the Anatolian Turks, the Allies sat on their hands.

        • http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

          As Greece melts down into economic chaos I think it’s vital that the press and the international community is on its guard in order to prevent scapegoating and mistreatment of immigrants, Muslims, Jews or anyone who can fall foul of the classic urge to persecute “outsiders” when things go wrong.

          The world and especially the EU is watching Greece closely, the EU is painfully aware of the dangers posed by extremists such as Golden Dawn and the press has not been short of commentary about the worrying rise of racism of all varieties in Greece. The difference is that scrutiny is not considered anti-Greek. Nor should commentary on the actions of Israel be labelled anti-Semitic.

    • JamesdelaMare

      Eddie – No, the question isn’t about “Metro-lefties”. It’s about Israel, Netanyahu, Palestinians and Gerald Scarfe. It’s also, underneath, about why over so many centuries Jewish people, particularly now in or supporting Israel, have been unwilling to see themselves as others see them. Why, too, we never are told or are allowed to debate the reasons for their widespread unpopularity so that they may be able to correct the poor perception the Muslims and others hold of them.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=698573157 John Hall

        Part of the problem is the ever-increasing trend to conflate militant Zionist hardliners with all Israelis with all Jews. The reason this is becoming more troublesome is that Muslim opponents tend to do this for their own evil distortions but defenders of Israel also look to play the same game in order to justify actions which moderate Israelis would have questioned themselves in the past. It’s the inevitable corollary of the polarisation that has occurred with greater numbers of the IDF now recruited from the occupied territories who feel themselves so under siege that desperate unworthy measures are now justified in their eyes. They are beyond criticism as flagbearers. It’s as if UKLF (NI) only recruited from the Shankill during The Troubles.

        • Cazzie

          The conflict is being orchestrated. No doubt about it. The Israeli government would love nothing better than a 3rd intifada so they can say ‘See… we had to crush the popular resistance and drive them out into Jordan.’. It wasn’t OUR fault’

          • Simeon Howell

            I think that’s pretty nasty…you should think about it

            • http://www.facebook.com/roger.hudson.946 Roger Hudson

              Just read Jabotinsky ‘s essay ‘the Iron wall’, the Netanyahu family are the heirs of Jabotinsky.

        • http://www.facebook.com/roger.hudson.946 Roger Hudson

          But now the hard-line Zionists seem to be in the majority, look at all the elections since Begin became premier.
          As for the occupied lands, in 1981 I visited the small Arab village of Modi’in which is now a gleaming white (Jewish) city full of immigrants from America and Russia, no wonder Arabs are not happy. Imagine how you would feel if a huge group of people took over a British town such as Whitechapel?

          • Simeon Howell

            But they are not occupied lands. They are disputed territories, once under the British mandate but annexed by Jordan and Egypt during the war of 1948. Sir you are misled. The areas which you are talking about were part of a mandate for a Jewish homeland in-which Arabs could freely live. Zionism is not a negative thing, but it has been taken to be by people such as yourself. The original Zionists were pioneers prospering barren and unwanted land. I have visited Jericho where homes were built for Palestinians who refused to live in them as they were built by Jews which was an Israeli incentive. Why can’t these Arabs you talk about live peacefully alongside their Jewish neighbors in their gleaming white homes and stop being so envious of them? After all they are more than happy to use Israeli hospitals when they need to and be operated on by Jewish surgeons. After that is many have supported blowing up Jewish children on buses etc.

      • http://www.facebook.com/ilana.walsh Ilana Walsh

        What exactly do you mean by “we never are told or are allowed to debate the reasons for their widespread unpopularity”? What else is this thread, or the hundreds of others on this subject that appear every day, but a debate on the reasons for the unpopularity of Jews and/or Israelis? Has anybody been arrested for participating in these threads?

      • sarah_13

        Are you serious? !!!!! I’ll remember your words the next time I have the opportunity to debate this with someone jewish, like say my doctor who happens to be jewish? perhaps homosexuals should do the same, or women, Christians……. Your comment really is disgraceful.

      • Charlie97

        This is a pretty poor assessment, I’m afraid to say.

      • Fergus Pickering

        They are not unpopular with me.

    • Cazzie

      Eddie. It is the universal struggle against oppression and the domination of one group over another. That’s why the left have got on board. It is Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Native Americans plight, the civil rights movement. the anti-apartheid movement, the Spanish Civil War against the fascists and the Irish struggles against British rule all rolled into one. That’s what I see. You’ll just have to take my word for it seeing as you probably can’t get your head round it.

      • Cazzie

        Also I can absolutely assure you that that is how the Palestinians see it too. It is NOT a struggle over religion.

        • Simeon Howell

          I can assure you Palestinian Christians are suffering far more at the hands of their Muslim brothers. Those protests are anything but peaceful

      • Simeon Howell

        Where to begin?? Oppression and domination??To compare The Zionist movement with fascism is fatuous and daft. The Israelis are not some dominant imperialistic nation. They are under constant threat of murder by fanatic Jew hating terrorists, to compare the Palestinians with the Native Americans is bizarre in this sense. The Native Americans were there first. Jews were there first…not Palestinians, who are Arab. Even so There are Israeli Arabs in their government, their hospitals, their schools living peacefully side by side with their Jewish counterparts. You are fabricating and perpetuating a distorted nonsense.

      • Eddie

        Hilarious! So where were the left when the Jews were being persecuated and chucked out of EVERY SINGLE ARAB COUNTRY in that region?
        Read some history, or ask a grown-up to teach you some.
        You seem to be swallowing the lies promoted by the Jewhaters and panderers to Muslims from the hypocritical left.
        No, love, it ISN’T the tolpuddle martyrs, the natyive americans, the civil rights movememnt, the Spanish/Irish whatever either.
        YOu are clearly to thick to realise that the Muslims that you and your gormless and gullible lefties are supporting fascists.
        Read the Hammas manifesto. Read and listen to the fascistic filth spewing out of Iran and north Africa now.
        You have chosen the wrong side, sister, and that’s why you are no supporting the Islamofacists over those who want democracy, tolerance and justice.

    • David Lindsay

      Over half of the Jews in Israel are brown. They speak Arabic at home. They have no connection to the Holocaust. And they are never allowed anywhere near a sniff of power. Funny that.

      • Grrr8

        Rachel Shabi in the guardian had a rather good article on this topic.

      • Abtalyon

        No, they speak Hebrew and some have managed to get menial jobs like Supreme Court judge, Chief of Staff of the IDF, Foreign Minister, Defence Minister and, well I could go on but what’s the point?

      • Simeon Howell

        But what are you trying to say man?? make your point clear

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