Coffee House

Are Christians being persecuted in Britain?

2 January 2013

5:46 PM

2 January 2013

5:46 PM

Douglas Murray makes a striking point on his Spectator blog about the violent persecution that many Christians face across the globe, while the Church of England fights over gay marriage and women bishops. Christians in this country do fear that they are being persecuted, too, with a case making the headlines at the weekend about a Baptist who had unsuccessfully sued her employers for forcing her to work Sundays.

Actually, in Celestina Mba’s case, it does sound rather unfair that she came under pressure to work on Sundays when she had asked at the start of her employment to be exempted from doing so on the grounds of her religious belief. The judge rejected her case, observing that Sunday as a holy day isn’t a fundamental requirement of the Christian faith. He’s right there: the Bible does talk about observing a Sabbath, but Sunday isn’t specified. The ‘fundamental requirement’ of the Christian faith is faith itself, not deeds. Besides, those who work for the church tend to take their Sabbaths on a Saturday: Sunday doesn’t feel like a day of rest at all if you’re a staff member at a bustling church.


But are Christians in Britain being persecuted? Not if you compare them to those in Indonesia, Egypt or Syria, certainly. There’s an argument that they are being marginalised in this country: the census recorded a drop in those declaring themselves Christians, but one might argue that this is simply because it’s now perfectly acceptable and fashionable, even, not to subscribe to a religious belief. At least those writing ‘Christian’ might also be those attending church out of choice, rather than under duress as in generations gone by. Unlike in many other countries, Christians are free to attend Church and free to explain their religious convictions to others. The growth of the Alpha Course, for example, doesn’t suggest widespread persecution.

There’s also, dare I say it, a mistaken assumption by some Christians that every dispute they face at work is ‘persecution’, rather than perhaps a result of some misguided behaviour on their part. Perhaps if the Catholic Church maintained its opposition to gay marriage without its leading lights saying things like this, there would be a little less vitriol directed at it (mind you, Richard Dawkins gives them a run for their money with his polite comments about the church, too). Some rows, such as the one about this Christian housing association worker who was asked not to display a palm cross in a certain place in his van, don’t seem an inevitable consequence of someone being open about their faith in the workplace, either.

A few months ago, I listened with dismay to a fellow churchgoer boasting that he’d scolded his boss for swearing in the office, not because the Christian was being forced to use language he disliked himself, but because his colleague’s behaviour ‘offended my Christian values’. The Bible is quite clear that obedience to its teachings follows faith, rather than legalism creating the conditions for belief, so why should Christians force those who don’t believe to behave in the same way that they do? In some cases, rather than persecution, the problem might be a little closer to home than it seems.

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Show comments
  • John Byde

    So persecution is all christians’ fault. Okay, I get it.

  • 菜連

    I am a Christian being persecuted in Britain unprovoked, when I was practicing my faith privately. I reported my case to multiple authorities, to no avail.

  • Dominic Hinkins

    Christians are not being ‘persecuted’. Persecution implies that they are being treated differently from other people or faith groups. In actual fact they are merely being asked to accept the SAME conditions, and be treated equally. ‘Christian persecution’ in the UK is merely Christian complaining at the loss of their special priveleges.

    Is jewellery banned at work? Then why should you have an exemption for your cross?

    Are you employed to conduct civil partnerships? Then you must do your job, you don’t get an exemption – and if you don’t like it, get another job.

    You have no more right to an exemption than a vegetarian working at a butcher’s shop – if your beliefs prevent you from continuing in a job, then it is your place to find a new job, not the employer’s to make an exception for you.

    I’m pretty sure God will recognise whether it’s your choice to work on a Sunday or your employer’s orders. “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”. You are entitled to believe what you like, but ‘conscience’ no more entitles you to act in accordance with your beliefs than it does a child molester. Believe what you want, but your actions are governed by law.

    Honestly, if Christians acted as the bible told them to instead of whining about how persecuted they are, maybe they’d be more popular…

  • Andrew Paul Shakespeare

    I think “persecution” may be the wrong, melodramatic word. Are Christians sometimes discriminated against, sometimes from ignorance, sometimes from deliberate malice by those who view them as a soft target? Yes, of that I’m absolutely certain

  • Robert Canning

    So Christians don’t have the legal right to choose their work hours, and some call this persecution? Atheists don’t have that right either. No-one does. Persecution certainly isn’t what it used to be.

  • jasonjapanwhite

    The main reason for supporting Christianity is as a bulwark against encroaching Islam. But if all public displays of religion were banned all the time… Sure the Muslims would kick up, but that would provide the justification to come down on them hard. Really, really hard. Nothing the police like more than wading into a bunch of towel-heads with battens drawn.

  • jasonjapanwhite

    Christians think they are being persecuted when the grants, exemptions and tax-breaks don’t flow quite as freely. Tax religion as a business; the after-life insurance business.
    Jack, Japan Alps

  • The Red Bladder

    “Are Christians being persecuted in Britain?” As the lady herself points out, no. So a bit of a strange question to ask then really.

  • WillyTheFish

    “The ‘fundamental requirement’ of the Christian faith is faith itself, not deeds.”

    Correct as far as it goes. However, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” – James 2:14

  • MacTurk

    The notion that Xtians are being persecuted in Britain is laughable.

    The Head of State is also the head of the State church, which is rumoured to be Christian. Senior members of this church are guaranteed seats in the House of Lords, and the whole culture is still steeped in Christianity.

    The complaints from Christians in Britain about ‘persecution’ simply arise from the fact that their particular sect no longer enjoys the unquestioned deference to which, over a very long time, they have become accustomed….

    The uppity ‘others’, be they Muslims, Bahais, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs or atheists, are simply demanding a share of the cake of respect. That does not, for any logical person, constitute “Persecution”….

    When the CoE bishops are hurled through the windows of the House of Lords, when the first mob of enraged Sikhs burns down a a CoE church, when the first gang of religiously inspired Muslims attack Westminster, etc, why then you may speak of persecution.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Why is atheism these days so often expressed as bitter antipathy towards the Christian church? From which bitter spring is it drawn?

      • MacTurk

        I am not bitter, with regard to Christianity, or any other religion. My attitude to all religions is a compound of amusement and indifference – there is precious little to choose between them in any case, given the number of times they have stolen each others foundation myths, doctrines and dogmas.

        Your perception that my perfectly reasonable post was motivated by “…bitter antipathy towards the Christian church..” probably says more about your attitudes than anything else….

        And which ‘Christian church’ are you referring to, please? There is a large number of different groups which all claim that title….

    • Dr Crackles

      Get back to your books and read about the persecution of non-conformist Christians in this country. Their hard won battle actually opened the door for you to freely hold your atheism. Think about it.

      • MacTurk

        Persecution of Christians by other Christians? How could this be possible? On the other hand, given the bickering on these pages about who is “A Real Christian”, and whether the Anglican Church is Catholic or not, why would I be surprised……?

        Neither the fact that majority opinion in Britain gradually came to the conclusion that the situation of Non-Conformists was simply unjust, nor the extension of that same tolerance to Catholics in 1800, has anything to do with my lack of belief, mainly because I am not a UK resident, and never have been.

        The fact remains that to claim that Christians suffer persecution in the UK is complete nonsense.

        If you were living in a situation where admitting your religion to the wrong person would result in a bullet in the head, a situation which obtained in Northern Ireland until recently, there would be grounds for such a claim. However, at the moment the state Christian Church enjoys a position of privilege, both political and financial. Other religions also get more favourable tax treatment, and quite a few denominations have large portfolios of prime property…

        I have to repeat that if this situation can be defined as ‘Persecution’, why then I wish to persecuted to the full rigour of UK persecution, thanks.

  • Madame Merle

    By its nature of being tolerant, Christianity is bound to lose against an aggressive and intolerant organisation like Islam.

    In Muslim countries Christians and other of non-Muslim faiths are being persecuted and purged while in Europe, Islam is not only tolerated but is encouraged to flourish.
    Due to its aggressive and menacing nature, Islam is being allowed to take control of western civilisation. In the 1960s, certain areas of the UK had burgeoning Hindu and Sikh populations but Muslims were hardly visible.

    The demographic changes to Europe in general but to Britain in particular are terrifying and I can’t understand why this has been allowed to happen.

    As a “bad” Catholic, I nevertheless continue to treasure Christian values but think that tolerance can be carried too far.

    The meek shall inherit the earth, if that’s all right with everyone else.

  • Manuel

    She should be happy she works at all! Besides, Sunday worship is a creation of the Nicene Council, if I am not mistaken, to ease the transition of subjects in the Roman Empire from paganism to Christianity. Sabbath is the correct day, it is one of the Commandments…increasing persecution is a sign of the age…it is to be expected.

    • Bogdan Lupu

      One day the Western Christianity will be like this:

      On the other side, it might be not, because the signs are more and more visible

  • Jane Marple

    What the complainers actually mean is that they are finally being forced to abide by the same rules as the rest of us, and that their historical and unearned privileges are being removed. You are free to worship as you please, but if your religion conflicts with the requirement of a job, don’t take the job. Don’t train as a pharmacist and then refuse to dispense legal drugs because you and your religion disapprove of them. Don’t refuse to abide by dress codes that everyone else has to follow. Don’t refuse to work on a Sunday if it’s a normal part of the job. Don’t claim special privileges such as free parking when the rest of us have to pay for it, just because you want to go to grovel to your imaginary friend. Don’t expect me to pay for your religion to indoctrinate children at faith schools. And get your misogynistic and bigoted bishops out of Government.

    • Colonel Mustard

      So what about Sikhs and crash helmets then?

  • wrinkledweasel

    If you look carefully at most of the high profile examples of “persecution” of Christians, they almost all come from situations that are arbitrary and open to interpretation.

    For example, the Guest House people: If you are going to run a guest house you have to be thick-skinned and you have to obey the laws of the land. Simple. If you aren’t then you should do something else.

    If you are in a service industry the chances are you will be required to offer the service everyday. If Christians refuse to offer care to the elderly on a Sunday because of their “religious” commitments, it seems to me the height of phariseeism and runs quite contrary to the central thrust of the message of Jesus, which is to keep yourself free from sin and to care for widows and orphans, Sundays included.

    There are of course areas where other religions have been given special status, ahead of Christianity, but as Curnonsky pithily puts it,

    “Christianity is in the crosshairs not as a result of a general turn away
    from religious belief but because it is the historical repository of
    Western cultural values that our Year Zero ruling class, in conjunction
    with Muslim supremacists, have vowed to wipe out.”

    The few legitimate cases where Christians have been persecuted are down to the scramble for hegemony in the pyramid of moral superiority; a heinous concept in which causes fight with each other for the top spot whilst scapegoating those below.


  • eeore


  • the viceroy’s gin

    So the Speccie teenager has decided the problem here is that Christians need to be scolded?

    You people are becoming a parody of yourselves.

    • Daniel Maris

      I sometimes wonder how a Spectator dinner party goes:

      “God aren’t those commentators on the Coffeehouse awful.”

      “A bunch of wanky Islamophobes if you ask me.”

      “Don’t you think you should do an article to balance things up. Slap Christians on the wrist for their extreme beliefs.”

      “No probs. I’ll get on to that.”

      “But what about the EU – surely that’s more important? Can’t you produce something balanced, about how we will be reduced to penury if we dare to take one step away from the EU?”

      “We can cover that as well…”

      “You know, we’ve just been through the worst recession in 70 years. There are all sorts of serious threats to international peace, such as Iran and North Korea’s acquisition of nuclear weaponry. And we face innumerable serious social problems at home such as an ageing population and growing welfare dependency. Do you think we could have big article about gay marriage? ”

      “Absolutely, boss.”

      • TomTom

        I bet it is more like….How high on the Canidate List do you want to be ? Did you receive that little bonus last week for your paid-advocacy work ? Steve can get you a Think Tank job, or there is some PR work coming up…help pay for that trup to the maldives…


    I have just received news that the St Gevorg Armenian Orthodox church in Aleppo has been burned down by the rebels. These are the rebels that our Government and especially William Hague are supporting. Will he say anything about this? He never speaks out on behalf of the Christian communities and is always too busy devoting his time to various fundamentalist Islamic groups.

    • Etrangere

      Hague is a huge disappointment to some (but no me; then again I was against Cameron from day one).

      • Madame Merle

        Not a huge disappointment to me at all, only what is to be expected.

        Hague and Cameron’s response to the so-called spring in Libya was the clincher.
        Cameron was rearing to go just so he could experience a Blair-in-Bosnia, hail conquering hero moment which he imagined would boost his popularity, the fool.

        Just take a look at Private Eye, issue 1329, “Letter from Mogadishu” to see how just how idiotic the foreign policy mindset really is.

        • AndyinBrum

          Blair in Bosnia? That was John Major, you mean Kosovo which avoided mass bloodshed & ethnic cleansing. But don’t let that the facts get in the way of an anti-blair alliteration.

    • TomTom

      Hague is not a Christian nor is Cameron. They are quasi-Marxist in outlook being essentially Humanists. Christians betray themselves by voting for them but do so to support Mammon


    I think you miss the point entirely Isabel. Persecution is not about whether or not someone swears in an office. It is about the deliberate exclusion of Christians from political, social and public life. Real Christians I mean. It is very easy for any group to call itself Christian. Rather more is required however. Real Christians, those not willing to adopt every PC fad that the leftists introduce, are indeed being excluded, quite deliberately. This is certainly the most anti-Christian government we have seen.

    Thank God that the Catholic hierarchy is gaining a sense of principled resistance to the anti-Christian agenda. I will happily walk on Parliament with them.

    • 2trueblue

      Agree with most of what you say, except Blairs government did most of the damage. A total hypocrite, and why the Catholics accepted him I know not.

    • PapaDocPenfro

      Could you come up with a brief definition of “real Christian”, or should we take it as read that you mean “somebody who thinks exactly like me”? I assume that you’re excluding both the Queen and the Archbishop of Canterbury from your definition. But that nice Cardinal O’Brien – he’s a REAL Christian, isn’t he?

  • HooksLaw

    Christians (Catholics and Anglicans) are being persecuted across the globe (as are other groups) and have been for a while.
    But to link this with gay marriage is pathetic.

    The other point to remember is that for an endless number of years we have had various Archbishops of Canterbury quite happy to ignore this in the name of appeasement to other religions.
    Personally I do not care tuppence for other religions, but I am prepared to let them exist. it would be nice to see a Christian leader simply stick up for his own kind once in a while if only to say ‘we want to be left alone and in peace as is our right’.

  • Man in a Shed

    Some converts to Christianity require safe houses, even in this country.

    But you’re right compared to the evil Christians now face on a daily basis
    in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan and parts of Nigeria its a mild oppression here.

    Freedom of religion doesn’t get the support it deserves.

  • Kevin

    Perhaps the attitude of the Government towards Christians in this country may be inferred from its response to the persecution of Christians overseas.

    • HooksLaw

      the government has no jurisdiction over foreign christians. It has and is entitled to have an opinion on persecution from whatever source over whatever victim. Indeed so has the UN.
      Persecution is nothing to do with ‘religion’. If it is taking place abroad it is a failure of the prime institution set up after WW2 to prevent it – the UN.

      But hey, twist the truth to make it suit your prejudice.

      • Etrangere

        “If it is taking place abroad it is a failure of the prime institution set up after WW2 to prevent it – the UN”: I wondered where your windy path was leading, but even you surprised me with that; still, how we rolled in the aisles.

      • TomTom

        Persecution is largely against Christians and is evident in China, Pakistan, Indonesia, India, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Lebanon, Turkey, West Bank, Gaza, Mali, Afghanistan, Iraq, Eqypt, Libya, to name but a few…..perhaps the “Un” could go to war in Libya and Iraq and Afghanistan to help them ?

  • Wilhelm

    A catholic bishop was murdered in Turkey.

    A Christian was beheaded in Tunisia by those freedom loving muslims, the video was posted on the internet.


      The Government does not care. Indeed it funds those who perpetrate such barbaric acts. Speaker Bercow was in a church service saying how much Christian communities were supported here and abroad just as Hague was establishing his credentials with the Islamic fundamentalists who are killing the Christians of Syria.

    • eeore

      Yes and the video was posted by the same people about to start a race war in the United States.

  • TomTom

    Christians in Britain are toothless Whingers who are supine and wet. Christians are supposed to be a threat to State Power and to to stand in opposition to State Power. In Britain so-called “Christians” are often weak and apologetic and far too ready to acquiesce with government and authority

    • Turdicus

      That is exactly what they are, some so apologetic they profess not to believe in God when asked about failures by the church to uphold Christian values.

    • HooksLaw

      ”so called’ christians’ – well that neat bit of prejudice just about sums you up.

      • Etrangere

        Any chance of being a little less boring this year and try avoiding
        terms which seem to turn up with monotonous regularity in your posts
        simply because you disagree with someone else (on this thread you already
        have sprinkled “bigot” “prejudiced” “ignorance”and “sick” around; it may be comic for the rest of us but is in danger of rendering your posts a self-parody).

      • TomTom

        Twerp. You know nothing of Christianity and have no theological underpinnings. So-called “Christians” in the UK have a completely different religion from those in Syria or Lebanon or Iraq and are more akin to Pontius Pilate than Jesus Christ when in Church….they want Sentimentality and Affirmation not Conflict to Uphold TRUTH

        • Stuart Eels

          What we want is for you to go away you wally but we won’t get.

          • TomTom

            Poor Stuart….go cry to mommy, she’ll make you feel better…..

    • Fergus Pickering

      Nonsense. Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars. Who said that, eh? You are on the side of Barabbas, who was indeed a revolutionary. I take it you would have.done what the jews did, freed Barabbas and crucified Christ.

      • TomTom

        Why did Christ say that Fergus ? Do you know ? It related to Resistance to Poll Tax……of course Christians cannot oppose Taxation because as you know….””My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my
        servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to
        the Jews. But now (or ‘as it is’) my kingdom is not from the world” (John 18:36)” So Christians should do nothing about Suffering in this World because Christ is concerned with Salvation of the Soul and NOT this World. Christians suffer in this world and look to the World To Come… Persecution is central to the Christian Faith…..but most Nominal Christians do not suffer in this country and are ignored in countries where they do suffer such as Pakistan where little girls are threatened with Death and Hague the Vague is silent and Lynne Featherstone is unconcerned but as a Jew is most keen to see the Church of England embrace her Secular Doctrines antithetical to Christian Faith and Tradition

        • Fergus Pickering

          Of course I know, Tomtom. My piece was rhetorical. I thought you would see that. What have Christians to do with Christ? Not much.

          • TomTom

            You are up early Fergus…guess you couldn’t sleep either !

            • Wessex Man

              Dark demons neither of you said your prayers last night did you?

              • TomTom

                We have to face our demons – you must try it !

    • Dominic Hinkins

      “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”.

      Pretty sure the whole Barabas thing was pointing out how Jesus failed to win popular support because he refused to rebel against the state…

  • dalai guevara

    ‘The CoE fights over gay marriage’ – I am at a loss to follow this basic of premises. Has any CoE vicar of bishop declared he or she will now marry gay couples in church? There is simply no ‘fight in church’ over this issue. It’s a discussion imposed by third parties.

  • Curnonsky

    Christianity is in the crosshairs not as a result of a general turn away from religious belief but because it is the historical repository of Western cultural values that our Year Zero ruling class, in conjunction with Muslim supremacists, have vowed to wipe out.

  • alexsandr

    if you want to see the double standards, make a film about a bloke from Mecca but called Geoff and see what happens.

    • Dominic Hinkins

      …pointing out that Muslims respond with intimidation does not strengthen your case…

  • Daniel Maris

    (a) You didn’t say what sect Ms. Mba belonged to. That’s obviously pretty crucial. It might be the Holy Sabbath Church of Lagos for all I know. Maybe Sunday attendance at Church is a big part of their particular dogma.

    (b) This is a diversionary article. The emphasis should be on the ethno-religous cleansing of Christians from state after state in the Middle East, as a result of gross and violent persecution by Muslims, with not even a murmur from our Arabist Foreign Office.

  • Jane McQueen

    The simple answer is no not by a long shot. When you consider the way that Christians throughout the ages have persecuted people who dared to question them or their treatment of heretics the so-called persecution of Christians in modern day Britain falls way short of that. We don’t see bonfires built and Christians put atop with a bag of gun powder around their neck, or tortured for what they believe.

    What we see is the advancement towards a more inclusive society, where the views of all who partake in it are considered and a decision made upon what is best for all; as opposed to the past where it was the Christian way or nothing. While this to some may seem like they are being persecuted because they are not getting their own way all the time, it is in effect a move to equality and valuing other views as being relevant.

    The day Christians are hunted down and murdered or tortured in the UK is the day that Christians can claim that they are being persecuted. But until that day to make such a claim degrades those people who are being persecuted for who they are all over the world.

    • Etrangere

      Crumbs. You seem to set a very high bar for “persecution”.

      • Jane McQueen

        When you have nations that will execute people simply for being gay; then that’s persecution. Stopping a Christian wearing a cross to work which contravenes the dress code of a company is not really comparable is it?

        Or where in some nations where Atheists are not given legal rights and in some cases executed too. Not really comparable to not letting a bed and breakfast owner discriminate against gay people because they don’t think it’s right for gay people to sleep in the same bed!

        • Etrangere

          Gosh. So you stand by your very bar high for “persecution”?

          • HooksLaw

            You stand by your stupidity. And I went to church last week.

            • Etrangere

              Me too, well it was Xmas.

        • Thomas Paine

          Their objection was to ‘unmarried’ people (of whatever orientation or gender) sharing a bed – for which they were abused, harassed and eventually put out of business.

          Clearly this coupled suffered persecution for their beliefs – state persecution given the heavy-handedness of the law, but perhaps worse was less direct persecution not least through calumny (like yours Jane) in the media which willfully misrepresented their position and whipped up opinion against them.

          Not that the gay vigilantes who conducted this abuse with complete impunity needed any whipping up, they took great pleasure in it.

          The stink of leftie double standards is quite disgusting sometimes.

        • Colonel Mustard

          You have a very strange idea about what amounts to persecution.

        • TomTom

          Christian B&B is in a PRIVATE home and should be treated differently from an Hotel. That gay lobbysists obtain a Guide to Christian B&Bs which is a publication and systematically seek out people to persecute in their own homes is an OUTRAGE

          • MacTurk

            If you are opening your house to the public, and accepting money for it, then it is a commercial business,and you cannot claim exemption from the laws of the land because your business is located in your home.

            If you were offering free accommodation, the case might be different. But once you move into the commercial world, you have to accept and obey the relevant laws.

            Your claim “That gay lobbysists obtain a Guide to Christian B&Bs which is a
            publication and systematically seek out people to persecute in their own
            homes is an OUTRAGE” is false. These are all people who are making money from offering accommodation services, and any attempt to refuse service to any group or individual, because the beliefs or behaviour of these groups or individuals are not identical to their moral views is, simply put, against the law. Law breaking should neither be ignored nor encouraged.

            You are free to lobby to get the law changed, by the way, but I doubt that such a campaign would be successful….

        • TomTom

          The Sexual Offences Act 1967 was
          accordingly passed. It maintained the general prohibitions on buggery
          and indecency
          between men, but provided for a limited decriminalisation of homosexual
          acts where three conditions were fulfilled. Those conditions were that
          the act had to be consensual, take place in private and involve only
          people that had attained the age of 21. This was a higher age of consent
          than that for heterosexual acts, which
          was set at 16. Further, “in private” limited participation in an act to
          two people. This condition was interpreted strictly by the courts, which
          took it to exclude acts taking place in a room in a hotel, for example,
          and in private homes where a third person was present (even if that
          person was in a different room).

    • Wilhelm

      Jane sweetheart

      And how many were murdered by atheist communist regimes in Stalins Russia, Maos China, North Korea, Pol Pots Cambodia, Eastern Europe, etc etc.

      Was it 100 million to 150 million ?

      Not only is Liberalism a mental disorder, it’s a suicidal mental disorder.

      • Jane McQueen

        Actually if you consider the way that the Communist states were set up and the veneration that was adorned upon their leaders Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and so forth, they are considered to be a state religions and not Atheist states, as you don’t need a “god(s)” to have a religion.

        • The Wiganer

          Nature and humans abhor a vacuum. Take away organised religion and secular versions will take its place.

          There are some serious nutters in secular groups.Just listen to environmentalists when they start talking about population control and humans as a disease (not including them and their friends of course).
          The best solution is a (relatively) benign religion like the C of E.

        • TomTom

          You are clearly potty. Secular Religions do not have gods they have Lawyers who think they are gods or Secret Policemen. Cult of Personality is not veneration by Humanism and an attempt at being Immortal for Transient Beings – it is age old like the Pharaohs and usually involves a glorious tomb, a taxidermist and a glass case – as with Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Ho…….they are Atheist and Godless States and represent Hades on Earth

      • HooksLaw

        Stalin’s Russia for one did not murder millions of people because they were Christians. Certainly in WW1 everyone who was killing everyone else was a Christian, well if you rule out the Turks. And Turkey today is a secular country.

        But we all know which way your bigotry bends.

        And… Oh yes, Pol Pot, Cambodia, thats a country riddled with Christianity isn’t it? (out of the 425,000 Chinese living in Cambodia in 1975, half of them were killed. The Khmer Rouge carried out many atrocities against minority groups, including forcing Muslims to eat pork and shooting those who refused.)

        You are one sick ignorant bigot. You never know one day some of the usual suspects might wake up and realise they are turning into you.

        The truth is of course that you and Pol Pot have more in common than you (in your thickness) realise.

        • The Wiganer

          Communist / Socialist doctrine on religion is quite explicit; destroy it. The orthodox church under Stalin took quite a beating, but don’t let facts get in the way of a good rant.

          Feel free to call me a predjudiced, stupid bigot for dissenting from your opinion.

        • Etrangere

          “Certainly in WW1 everyone who was killing everyone else was a Christian”: really? The Turks were not the only non-Christians fighting in WW1. Perhaps you should think and pause before posting.

          • TomTom

            Arabs were clearly pre-Muslim as were Indian HIndus and Muslims and Japanese Shinto and Buddhists. No Jews were involved. Of course they all were Christian before they fprcibly converted after WW1 by Woodrow Wilson and the League of Nations…….or maybe H L thinks these people did not get involved in a “White Man’s War” ? THe Commonwealth War Graves Commission must start replacing all those headstones without crosses and eradicating the Star of David and other “erroneous” symbols affixed to “Christian “graves………………………

        • TomTom

          Turkey is NOT Secular – it has a Ministry of Religious Affairsand it employs Imams as Civil Servants. Christians are harassed and not permitted to own buildings for worship. Stalin did not hold power in WW1 but he did persecute Christians and execute priests….maybe you should read up on Solovki Camp and what actually went on in the USSR. Mentally ill you certainly are and deceitful too

        • Wilhelm


          In my previous post I said ” How many were killed by atheist regimes ? ” I didn’t say ” How many Christians were killed by atheist regimes.” There is a slight difference.

          Ps. Did Santa not get you a train set for Christmas, is that why you’re screwed up, hacked off and full of resentment ?

      • Daniel Maris

        For some reason you missed off the atheistic Nazi regime Wilhelm.

        • Wilhelm



      • MacTurk

        There is no connection between Liberalism and the mass murderers you have listed. Not today, not yesterday, and not tomorrow either.

    • Colonel Mustard

      What a truly disgusting comment. I don’t know which is worse – your twisted relativism or your thinly veiled hatred of Christians.


        This Government has said that in a Christian country built on Christian principles which have developed a lasting Christian civilisation, Christianity has no special place at all. I would say that is a statement of intent, and that the Government will continue to act against Christians when they speak up and speak out as one of the last vestiges of our Western civilised society.

        • Dominic Hinkins

          Excuse me? A Christian country? I happen not to be a Christian – am I therefore not British? Even if you’re a racist twat, my family can trace its roots back to the Saxons.

          This is not a Christian country – this is a country whose citizens are of many faiths and none, and you have no right to claim that people who think differently are lesser citizens. It is not even historically a Christian country – it was pagan first.

          This is not a Christian country – except in the sense that the state Church receives state support and privileged position at civic events like Remembrance sunday. Or perhaps in the sense that British law demands schools have an act of Christian worship every day.

          Christianity is privileged. If Christians continue to demand exemption from workplace regulations and equality laws because of what they believe, that will set a precedent that ANYONE can get an exemption from the law if they happen to believe it’s wrong.

          Guess who else believes the law is wrong: racists, murderers, child molesters, terrorists.

          You don’t get to be an exception from the law because you strongly believe it’s wrong. You get to follow the same rules, and the same laws, as everyone else, and if you want to change it, you go through the democratic process.

          Christians are not being persecuted. They are at best equal, and at worst privileged.

    • Dogsnob

      So you get to set the parameters of what constitutes persecution?

      Perhaps we might borrow from anti-racist proponents, to declare that anything which is perceived by the victim to be persecution, IS persecution?

      And your ‘advancement to a more inclusive society’ model will look fine and dandy, right up to the point at which one of those societies becomes the most numerous. Then the model will crumble. The Middle East offers many examples.

    • TomTom

      “What we see is the advancement towards a more inclusive society, where
      the views of all who partake in it are considered and a decision made
      upon what is best for all;”……………………The General Will of Jean-Jacques Rousseau………

    • Colonel Mustard

      “What we see is the advancement towards a more inclusive society, where the views of all who partake in it are considered and a decision made upon what is best for all; as opposed to the past where it was the Christian way or nothing.”

      That is precisely not what we see. What we see is an advancement towards a society where “inclusivity” means giving disproportionate power to minority identity groups favoured by leftist doctrine whilst removing it from hitherto established or majority inclinations. This is dressed up as progress to remove discrimination and inequality but is just a means to revolutionary turbulence and generally creates more discrimination and inequality – as well as being malevolently divisive. It is also being increasingly coerced through politically motivated legislation. The views of those who dissent from this new orthodoxy are not being considered at all but instead are vilified and subject to hyperbolic pejoratives such as “phobes” and “denialists”. The decision about what is best for all is in the hands of a relatively small neo-fascist leftist elite who presume to speak on behalf of a public majority without testing that mandate other than through selective polling and dodgy statistics. They do so with increasing arrogance and blatancy.

      Within this “advancement” agenda are a number of contradictions and double standards that advocating leftists like you choose to conveniently disregard. These include the official promotion of homosexual culture to British schoolchildren whilst ignoring the Islamic persecution of homosexuals and the promotion of hardline feminist agendas whilst ignoring the subordinated position of women in Islam. When these contradictions are pointed out and a reconciliation demanded neo-fascist leftists evade by resorting to accusing their critics of “islamophobia” or “racism”.

      I am tired of neo-fascists practicing this deceit and crowing from an artificially constructed and totally bogus moral high ground. To then represent the past as the “Christian way or nothing” is codswallop of the most pernicious kind. What we have at the moment is the neo-fascist leftist way or nothing.

      • Madame Merle

        Well said, Colonel.

  • ToryOAP

    I repeat my post from the Unholy War leader on 29 December.

    This article neglects to cover the persecution of Christians here in the land of the founding of the Church of England. Not religious myself I do however strongly believe in Christian values which are now, it seems, deemed secondary to those of imported, less tolerant, religions. I do not understand why those who wish to wear a crucifix are denied that right, why we are forced to eat halal meat, and why do we have giant mosques appearing all over the land? I do not understand why so many muslims are hostile to our way of life yet we permit them to parade through our streets, disseminate their vile literature and insult our armed forces, live off our welfare and will not leave when we ask them to. I do not see why an endless stream of immigrants whose beliefs are antithetical to the indigenous population continue to be allowed entry to the UK when similar transfers to Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, China, Somalia etc (even if desired) would be impossible. I do not see how we got here and I do not want to see where we will end up.

    • HooksLaw

      There are some big mosques, as there are a lot of big cathedrals; but in fact a lot of them are quite small. Funny really – you complain about lack of religion on one hand and attack a religion on the other.

      ‘Endless stream of immigrants’ … ‘antithetical to religion’? Most east european immigrants are keen Catholics i think. And a big schism in the anglican church is between us and the africans.

      You ruin your point by ignorance and prejudice. But fear not – here on loony toon central; you are in good company

      • ToryOAP

        Not for the first time Trevor, you prove to all and sundry what a tiresome prat you can be. I am prepared to be misunderstood but not misquoted; where do I say ‘antithetical to religion’? As for ignorance and prejudice, alas that is more evident in your words than those of the majority of right-thinking posters here. You are fast becoming a telemuctwat clone, just when his omni-presence here has so thankfully declined.

        • tele_machus

          Be not deluded
          I may be far away but will keep a watching brief on the forces of revanchist although I must say you look even more parochial little england and Islamophobia from here
          The giant mosques you so decry are a spiritual haven of peace in a mad mad so called Christian world
          I council you to visit the Regents Park golden dome and not come out with the same sense of inner peace you might get from say a visit to the crypt in the Basilica of St Francis of Assisi
          I preferred proscription for your goodself

      • TomTom

        Actually there are some very big newmosques funded by Saudi Arabia and if you got out more you could visit Bradford, Batley, Dewsbury, Keighley, Preston etc…….

        “Haras Rafiq, co-founder of the Sufi Muslim council, said large foreign donors expected mosques to reflect their beliefs, and this was squeezing out moderate Muslims. “This has been a huge problem for the last decade.
        Some of the biggest mosques and institutions in the UK have been funded by foreign money and have been proven to be portraying extremist viewpoints.

        “Money speaks and we need to ensure that the money is not coming from the wrong people.”

    • MacTurk

      Who is forcing you “…to eat halal meat…”? When was the last time you were forced at gunpoint, or threat of violence, to buy halal meat in your butchers?

      There is NO “… endless stream of immigrants whose beliefs are antithetical to the indigenous population…”, unless you mean Catholic Poles?

      • Sue Ward

        Err I think it is now well recognised that many supermarkets, fast food outlets and restaurants sell Halal chicken and lamb without identying it as such on the labels. We are being forced to consume it because we are unable to recognise it and avoid it if we so wish.

  • Archimedes

    Most of this is rational, but I can’t help but feel that you are entirely missing the point.

    I think what most people term “persecution of Christianity” is actually just what they perceive to be double standards. If you have a Christian state, then moving to a more libertarian state is always going to be perceived as a persecution of Christianity, by de-prioritising Christianity, and favourable to other religions or even towards militant secularism, by putting them on the same playing field.

    It’s also probably true to say that by appearing to be that way, the effect it will have on social attitudes will be much the same as a persecution.

    • TomTom

      Libertaian State with Control Orders, Spying on Communications, Radio adverts inviting people to shop neighbours to police, registration of all children and logging of all visits to GPs and A&E for Social Workers, Bonuses to Social Workers for adoption, restriction on free speech, Civil Contingencies Act, RIPA, CRB, CCTV, ……yes the Libertraian Society needs an All-Pervasive State Surveillance……

  • Thomas Paine

    Isabelle, I don’t necessarily take issue with the thrust of your article but appealing to ‘what the bible says’ (while a perfectly valid thing to do) is by no means the whole story.

    Many, indeed the majority of Christians (specifically, Catholics and the various forms of Orthodox) include traditional practice and teaching, as well as the teaching authority of their hierarchies, in addition to the bible, as part of their belief.

    Perhaps hard for someone brought up in a Protestant tradition to follow but because something ‘isn’t in the bible’ doesn’t mean it can be automatically dismissed for may Christians. The notion of justification by faith alone came out of the Reformation and isn’t recognised at all by the majority of Christians. (You also have to as ‘whose bible?’ but that’s another discussion!).

    • Andy

      Anglicans are Catholics: what we are not is Roman Catholics.

      • Thomas Paine

        Not for much longer it seems, especially if Cameron marches you all in to vote again because you got it ‘wrong’ last time.


          It seems to me impossible to say that Anglicans are Catholics in any sense. Some few would wish to be, but Anglicanism as a body and a system is definitely not Catholic in any meaningful sense.

          • Andy

            Well you quite obviously don’t have a clue what you are talking about. The Church of England is a Catholic Church. It is not the Roman Catholic Church, but the RCC does not have a monopoly on the word ‘Catholic’.

            • TomTom

              The Nicene Creed is recited in the Church of England with “one catholic and apostolic church”

            • Dr Cox

              It comes down to the definition of the word ‘catholic’. If coffeehousewall and you give your definitions you can have a constructive debate.

              After some years of study I left the Church of England (which I still love) because it seemed to me that it was schismatic and in that sense not catholic in the historic sense.


      If a person does not attend Sunday worship in many Churches they are liable to penalties. Certainly in Orthodoxy attendance at the Liturgy is required and persistent absence is subject to penalties. If this cannot be avoided then it is understood, but if the state, through local councils, are preventing a person attending then they are certainly standing in the way of their necessary Christian obligations.

      I resent an atheist or liberal judge setting himself up as an arbiter of what Christianity requires.