Coffee House

A pact wouldn’t solve the Tories’ UKIP problem

18 December 2012

12:29 PM

18 December 2012

12:29 PM

UKIP has seen a significant bump in support in the latest set of polls: it is up five points with Populus this morning. All of which makes Lord Ashcroft’s examination of why people are attracted to UKIP particularly timely.

The Ashcroft polling confirms that the UKIP vote is only partly about Europe. It also reflects a wider anger with a political class that appears aloof from peoples’ concerns. Among those considering voting UKIP, the most frequently stated reason is to send a message to the big parties on Europe and immigration.

[Alt-Text]


It is also striking that any kind of Tory / UKIP pact seems unpopular.

‘The few voters who had heard the idea of a Conservative-UKIP pact thoroughly disapproved of the proposal. It would demonstrate an attempt by the Tories to “buy” voters without properly addressing their concerns, show the party to be scared and therefore weak, and would deprive the electorate of the chance to exercise their democratic rights.’

As Tory strategists try to work out how to win back these voters, or at least prevent any further bleeding away, one of the strongest cards they have to play is that they want a Tory majority government more than most voters do. But Cameron is also going to have to find a way of acknowledging their concerns about the future of the country without repelling more optimistic voters.

Subscribe to The Spectator today for a quality of argument not found in any other publication. Get more Spectator for less – just £12 for 12 issues.


Show comments
  • coffeehousewall.co.uk

    It’s not about the EU, it is about conservatism. We don’t find the Conservative Party to be conservative at all.

  • Lawrence John

    As a Conservative who now votes UKIP, there is one thing missing from your pretty good analysis above – we don’t want Dave. Dave has mislead all the people of Britain, by taking a sceptical approach to Europe while in opposition, and repeatedly promising us a referendum. In power, he has been a complete Europhile, and doesn’t exhibit ANY traditional Tory characteristics.

    Dave must go before I ever vote conservative again.

  • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

    From Ian Birrell in today’s Evening Standard on why DC should not be pairing w/ UKIP:

    “Voters falling for Mr Farage are those fearful of the future and looking for people to blame for their insecurity, as former Tory treasurer Lord Ashcroft has proved after copious polling….The pressure is building on Mr Cameron to pander to the pessimistic concerns of Ukip’s disgruntled elderly supporters with tough “dog whistle” policies on issues such as crime and immigration. … It would, however, be at the expense of long-term gain for his party…. Britain is changing fast and the Conservatives must embrace a rapidly evolving nation to survive and thrive. ”

    We must say our prayers that Ashcroft is polling and DC is listening.

  • Malfleur

    Those who think that the police, on instructions or off their own bat, could not possibly fit up (i.e. frame, harass, falsely accuse) a young working class man like Tommy Robinson in the England of New Labour and the Big Society might want to take a reality check by popping over to http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/fraser-nelson/2012/12/was-andrew-mitchell-framed/ where a nob was the target. How much more likely the Common Man?

    Release, Tommy Robinson, Stephen Lennon, Paul Harris on bail; let him tell his story to the media; and let’s have the media and the politicians do their duty to listen to and investigate his case as thoroughly as they now appear to be doing for Andrew Mitchell. If New Labour, the Coalition, the police force, anyone, has been stitching up Tommy Robinson for political reasons and harassing and intimidating his family, I think people want to know. The tide will turn more decisively towards UKIP unless this corrupt political class cleans house PDQ..

  • the viceroy’s gin

    One thing’s for certain now, Cameron is doomed politically. When the Cameroons get put down, he’ll be put down, and likely forever. Maybe he’ll rise with the LD’s, but I can’t see any scenario where principled conservatives come back around to him, once having rejected him. There’s no there, there. Nothing to attract. No value. Nothing. He doesn’t even have a typical political careerist’s appetite for power, and is poised to get beat down with nary a whimper, which supports the theory that he’s a leftist, and wishes only and foremost that conservative governance is put down.

    • mikewaller

      He is doing an incredible difficult job in seeking to improve the future of a population many of whom are going through economic hell and from whom “principled conservatives” – whatever they are – could never secure an electoral majority, Dishing out stuff like this may do wonders for your ego but it is about as wide of the mark – albeit in another direction – as Ed Ball’s fan mail

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Perhaps, but it doesn’t really matter, because Cameron is doomed, and won’t be a part of the conversation, soon. Well, he may be a part of it over with his leftist soulmates.

        And we principled conservatives will be taking part, I assure you.

  • barbie

    I’ve come to the conclusion this country is fed up with the main parties, the lies, the broken promises, the silly things they committ to, like gay marrige. The Labour party too, have their demons; immigration which they instigated for their own ends, and ignored the people. Social engineering, which has changed this country for good, and now its classed as a cess pit in many areas. The Lib Dems, who have got onto the power band wagon and now like what they do, but have left all principles behind to do so. Who could willingly vote for any of them? UKIP offer an alternative, with policies that fit into the nations thinking; that’s why they are on a roll and succeeding. They’ve got my vote so far, but we have to see how they proceed and what they come out with, Nigel Farage today as acted swiftly to strike down one fool who would desecrate his party, that shows leadership to me. So far so good. Steady as we go, upwards and winning.

  • William Blakes Ghost

    Its very simple. Dopey Dave deserted the right of centre political ground to bask in the glory of the ‘sunlit uplands’ [tsk tsk tsk] of the centre ground with the Libdems and in doing so has left the mainstream right behind. He and his stooges have then repeatedly abused those they left behind so I suggest its not only going to take a change of policy direction to win back mainstream right of centre voters but also a change of leadership.

    When the Tories do (after the next election once Cameron is beaten most likely) they need to take a leaf out of Browns book and purge the Roons and their predecessors (the Major’s Patten’s, Clarke’s and Heseltine’s) from the party front line once and for all (just as the Blairates have been dispatched to the for corners of the poltical hinterlands). There must be no more of this quasi Blairite nonsense.

    Only with a clean untainted detoxified (and in that I mean of two faced duplicitous centre types) conservative party will they be able to start to attract back right of centre voters and that of course is if Dave hasn’t done so much damage as to make UKIP a serious contender to supplant the Tories as the main right of centre party.

    • mikewaller

      Yup! I think that brilliant strategy will make about 20% of the electorate really happy. You seem to forget that the Coalition had to be formed because far too few people vote Tory. For people like me your heroes are Euro-obsessives who wrecked the Major Administration and are now doing the same to Cameron. Why don’t you face up to the cruel hard fact that our problems are not Europe nor our policians, it is simply that too many of our people cannot make their way unsupported in the globalised world. Any set of policies that does not address this fundamental fact is just so much hot air and blatter. And if you think this problem is either new of non-existent, spend the Christmas period reading Corelli Barnett’s wonderful “The Audit of War”.

      • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

        This is spot on w/ the caveat that these folks cannot make their way in a globalised world at a basic standard of living/ income that is consistent with a developed western economy (i.e. in theory we can export them to Africa and they could make a subsistence living but we wouldn’t do that in a democracy).

        This is a very hard question to answer, but turning our backs on the world is about the worst answer possible. It will impoverish those who can make their way whilst doing nothing for those who can’t. In fact, it’s quite a powerful argument for additional short term welfare till education/ social improvement etc. can gain traction.

  • Dogsnob

    The answer to all our problems is simply to visit a pharmacy and buy under-the-counter, sedative drugs.
    Go to: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20753509

    Another “You wankers have been well and truly Neathered” production.

  • Daniel Maris

    In what sense are people who think things are going to get better in the country “more optimistic” than those who don’t. How can anyone argue that bringing in 400-500,000 people per annum from disparate cultures across the globe but with a preponderance of Islamic incomers is going to benefit us as a nation? Wouldn’t “more deluded” be a better and more objective choice of words.

    James, why don’t you just come out and say it:

    “I like mass immigration. I don’t care what effects it has on the country. Anyone who disagrees is a racist. Meanwhile I’m going to pack my kids off to public school where they won’t be exposed to all the demographic changes going on. So it’s not a problem for me. If push comes to shove I can always emigrate to South Africa, Canada or the USA. What’s the problem? ”

    That seems to be the Spectator line. Remember – Fraser is relaxed about Mohammed being the most popular boys’ name in the UK. He sees nothing to be concerned about there.

    I am not surprised UKIP are gathering support – despite all the psephological pronouncements here. It’s simply a reflection of reality – the tsunami of immigration has hit the beach…it’s (negative) effects are being felt everywhere. UKIP are the only party to take the issue seriously.

  • Open_Palm

    May I be so bold as to suggest this article by Joel Faulkner Rogers of YouGov who posits from their poll results that:

    “63% of British people, according to results, believe it’s important to national interests for the UK to remain “a leading voice in the European Union”, versus only 28% who say it’s unimportant. Political, social and demographic variance leaves majority-trends essentially unchanged.”

    There are more numbers in said article that explains how YouGov arrived at the (many) conclusions it had from their polling. Worth a read.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/joel-faulkner-rogers/many-brits-prefer-eu-lite_b_2315220.html?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

  • wrinkledweasel

    People are fed up of the appalling lack of representation. Ironically, those who are taxed the heaviest seem to get the least say in this sick society. UKIP may or may not address this imbalance, but at least they are talking about the issues nobody else will.

    • Stuart Eels

      I have to agree, It even comes down to Council level now, my County Council, Tory, spent £2.38 million doing up an old building to move into when they spent even more on County Hall refurbishments and are now going to demolish the old building and because it was new they then spent £1.68 million on new furniture for it and gave the old to staff. After they done so well over the years looking after our interests we now learn that their allowances have gone by over 50% yes 50% since 2007!

  • Justathought

    it is blindingly obvious how to win back voters; get a grip on immigration and announce an EU In/Out referendum

    • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

      Clearly you need to start a political party to deliver this manifesto to the masses.

  • Chris lancashire

    The majority on this thread seem to think that UKIP offers a good protest vote. It certainly does. And the price of that protest vote is a Labour Government. Whatever you think of Cameron on Europe it will pale into insignificance when PM Milliband gets together with his mates Barroso and Hollande.
    As for all the “weak” and “arrogant” comments regarding Cameron, let me at least offer some balance. I happen to believe that Cameron is doing a good job in immensely difficult (i.e. Coalition Government – yes I know, I know, and the world economy coupled to Gordon’s legacy). Immigration is reducing, a start has been made on the benefits culture and progress made on stopping the slide into EU integration. As for Nigel’s UKIP, look beyond the EU and Immigration policies ant there is nothing, nowt, zero, zilch. There are no realistic economic policies beyond wishful thinking that stopping contributing to the EU and reducing benefits (which ones Nige?) will balance the books.
    Vote Protest, vote UKIP. Get Labour. T.I.N.A.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Yes, but all that is to no purpose if he can’t win the election. And he won’t win the election with his “HooksLaw-type” attitude to the UKIP tendency. He should be building bridges to create a solid conservative collective not appeasing Clegg the Sulk.

      • Chris lancashire

        I think it’s where we are in the electoral cycle Colonel. 18 months hence it may well be very different when the end of term is looming so then no need to accommodate LibDems.

    • echo34

      What’s the difference between Labour and the tories at the moment Chris?

      It ain’t that much..fag papers..

      • Chris lancashire

        Ooh, about 200,000 public sector jobs and £tens of billions on benefits for starters.

      • mikewaller

        Nonsense, the Coalition are managing to hold a line on cuts – which the majority of the population would sooner stick their heads in the sand and forget about – that just about keeps the international lenders sweet. The mere thought that Balls might be back in charge, would put the interest rates through the roof.

        I do not wish to be unkind but my feeling is that contributions such as yours are ego-driven attempts to play i-Tarzan which serve to undermine the only show in town which has any chance of pulling our chestnuts out of the fire.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Arthur-Dent/100003072704387 Arthur Dent

    “As Tory strategists try to work out………”
    Its been worked out for them, they must be as thick as Cameron.

  • Colonel Mustard

    Just to make one thing absolutely clear. When people talk of the “centre ground” now it actually means left of centre. And right of centre is increasingly being characterised as “extreme right”, “far right” or “right wing” (as pejorative) as well as “loons”, “nutjobs”, etc. All the mainstream parties are now on the left of centre “centre ground”. That is the problem for conservatives.

    • HooksLaw

      Cobblers. The centre ground is the centre. This govt are cutting hundreds of thousands of public sector jobs and is taking education away from local govt control.. Is that left wing?
      You are so far removed from reality it is pathetic to behold.

      Nut jobs are people who put out appeals on behalf of racist fascist wife beating thugs.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Why bother commenting then? You can’t force me to love the “de-toxified”, “modern” Tories and you certainly won’t do it by hurling abuse. Whatever he might or might not be doing Cameron’s “message” on this is piss poor.

      • echo34

        Hooks Law. you’re just a typical tribalist in a blue hew. An Alf Garnet character with nothing of subtance to say. Dare i say it again but you are on par with the labour trolls on this site. At least they try to refrain from personal insults.

        • http://www.coffeehousewall.co.uk/ Coffeehousewall

          echo34, there is no reason why HooksLaw should not be the same person, or group of people, who post as Telemachus. The aim is not to participate in a discussion but to prevent any discussion taking place. HooksLaw does not usually post at the same time as Telemachus and may well be the same person. We already know about 5 other names he posts under, adopting slightly different opinions each time. Telemachus is the character who finds the genital mutilation of little girls amusing, HooksLaw is the character who pretends (too hard) to be a Conservative.

      • MirthaTidville

        Sorry to hear the medication isnt working Hookie….

      • Stranger

        I don’t know which is worse: your ignorance, your views, or your grammar. Whatever, they are all rubbish.

    • barbie

      Well said.

  • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

    James – article misses the key question: will the votes of these UKIP supporters (netted against a loss of centrist leaning voters’ votes) give the conservatives enough to win a majority or even improve their current constituency count. I believe the answer to this question is no. This is why Cameron etc. have been consistent in refusing any alliance w/ UKIP.

    • TomTom

      “Centrist-leaning” ? What the hell is that ? Conservatives could not win a majority in May 2010 so they ain’t gone to win one any time after 2010. Cameron has sunk his boat – he got 36% popular vote – Labour got 29%….with 65% turnout – and now Cameron is on 29% so heaven help him.

    • Vulture

      There are already two centre-left wing parties for those that like them. Dave’s insane attempt to turn the Tories into a third has sounded his political death knell and UKIP is the result – now the third party in the polls, and rising rapidly. ‘Oh where do all these nastyfruitcake people come’ from Cameron must be wailing.

    • Rhoda Klapp

      Those votes may indeed not be enough. but if those people stay home on election day, it will cost the tories plenty. Probably more than whatever contested votes in the centre they can gain, because centre folks by definition are also liable to vote LD or for any well-positioned Labour party. Gaining the centre only works if you keep your base. Currently at least part of the tory base seems to think they are no different from Labour. They stand to gain little by voting for more of the same.

      If the tories lose the next election, no matter what Hooky may say, it is not because of me or Mustard or coffeehousewall. It will be their own fault for alienating their base.

      • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

        U may be right on where the base vs centre trade off lies. But it’s worth remembering that Mitt Romney played to his base till the very end of his campaign and lost v badly. I’ll stick with my original pov.

        • Rhoda Klapp

          It may be that right-wing parties can’t keep the base and gain the centre. it may be that Romney was not a very good candidate to do that, too easy a target for the ‘rich white man’ abuse that he got. And probably deserved. The fact is that no matter what we think, possible votes are trending to UKIP, at this time. It surely is a problem for the tories. Their only reaction seems to be to send out hooky to shout at us. Is that the best they can do? What ARE they going to do to reverse the situation? Tell us we are wrong. That should do it.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          FYI, Willard never knew a day in his life during which he played to a conservative base.

          Much like Willard never had a chance to excite conservatives or the Tea Party, the Cameroons have little chance to excite the UKIP supporters. In both cases, principled conservatives will vote elsewhere, and damn the consequences.

          • mikewaller

            Your linking “principled conservatives” to the Tea party helps me understand what you are talking about. Just another group who react to the very difficult times we are living through by getting unconstructively angry and scapegoating.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Not from what I can make out. The Tea Party engaged politically, and brought on the largest wipeout in 3/4 century, at the local, state and federal levels. Those they wiped out needed to go, much like Cameron will be going, shortly. That’s how it’s done, when change is required.

              • mikewaller

                Just look at a group of Tea Party supporters next time some appear on TV. No doubt some nice folk amongst them, but for the most part they look nothing like the spear-head of economic resurgence to me. Ditto Ukipers – very good at getting angry, but what are they actually going to do to get “Team UK” up to Olympic class in all areas of economic activity?. It is a very important question because getting that right is our one and only hope.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Don’t know what to say to you, pal. The Tea Party engineered the biggest electoral shellacking in 3/4 century, so obviously somebody thinks they have something to contribute, and not just somebody, but huge volumes of somebodies. Same thing is about to happen to Cameron, and by the same type of people.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  No need to judge anybody other than by results. The Tea Party eliminated hordes of status quo politicians, in a historic wipeout, much as Cameron will be wiped out shortly. That’s all you can go by, effectiveness in politics, eliminating the policy ineffective.

                • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

                  Yep, the Tea Party eliminated status quo candidates on the right and their candidates went on to get shellacked in the general election. Sharron Angell, Christine O’Donnell ring any bells? The Democrats increased their senate majority and won the Presidency overwhelmingly in one of the worst economies the US has ever known in a re-election year.

                  But please go ahead and vote for UKIP. It should bring Labour or Labour-LibDem coalition back to power.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Actually, the Tea Party is responsible for moving the R party from 40 US Senate seats in 2010 to today’s 45, and that doesn’t tell the whole story, as the 45 are FAR more conservative by member than the 40.

                  And of course, the US House has overwhelmingly moved towards a Tea Party zeitgeist.

                  Not to mention the state governorships and legislatures, which the Tea Party conservatives continue to move steadily into their camp.

                  But yes, similar to the Willard Romney situation, I doubt conservatives anywhere worry too much about which group of leftists wins the presidency/PM. Better for conservatives to vote conservative, and not leftist, as for Cameron. That’s what the Tea Party figured out, and it continues to bear historic fruit for them.

                  I wouldn’t wait for the LD’s to bail out the Millipedes, by the way. I’ll make a not so bold prediction that the 2 together won’t make a majority in 2015.

                • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

                  The Republicans did go from 40 to 45 senators in 2010 in the middle of the worst US economy since the great depression. The question you should be asking yourself is why didn’t they go to 50. I’ll give you answer again: the Tea Party.

                  Glad you made the prediction! We’ll hold you too it if you are still around then.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  No, the economy was not the worst since the great depression. You’re reading from those idiot media nostrums.

                  The Tea Party is why the US Senate has moved in a more conservative direction. You seem to be fascinated with numbers, but you shouldn’t be, because they don’t really matter much. It’s all about the conservative temperament, and whether it’s growing. It is. The Tea Party full well recognizes that it’s the composition of that number, not the magnitude. That’s why they’re finding political success. They’re hewing to principle, and not base politics. It’s principle first, and the politics follows on. Classic formula for political success.

                  Although speaking of “numbers”, there’s the US House, and state governors and state legislators, and local governments, where the Tea Party is absolutely dominant. They have numbers AND composition, at those levels.

                  I sorta read this as the Cameroons’ and you lefties death sentence. Once it catches on somewhere, it spreads elsewhere.

                • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

                  I dunno about you sport, but I understand that when you have under 50 senators (or 60 in the case of filibusters), you may have the rummiest 49 elected but it ain’t gonna do you no good when it comes to passing bills. And passing bills is what I call political success, not spewing bile at gibbering drooling idiots which seems to be the Tea Party’s major achievement thus far.

                  It is all about the numbers and has nothing to do with ‘conservative temperament’ as you put it. Thats why its called democracy and not authoritarianism.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Yes, but the Tea party doesn’t WANT to pass bills. It is in opposition to the psychotic leftism that you apparently support. They don’t want to “pass bills”, sport. They want to stop you psychotic lefties from passing psychotic bills.

                  Again, you don’t seem to understand politics very well, but let me repeat. It’s not about the numbers. It’s about the COMPOSITION.

                  Go ahead and pass those bills, if you think you’ve got “numbers”. See what I mean? No bills will pass unless the Tea Party says so. You lefties will b lucky if they don’t shut down the government and successfully begin massive government cutbacks on the fly.

                  Don’t worry, the smarter lefties know what I’m talking about here, and that’s why they’re terrified about the Tea Party. They know the Tea Party is the dominant force in US politics right now, at all levels, and they are terrified of that.

                • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

                  Alternate reality, blah blah, boo ya, what a load of tripe comes out of you. Please keep voting for the Tea Party and UKIP. Please stick to trying not to pass bills. The rest of us will be the safer and more prosperous for it.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Well, the not passing bills portion continues until 2014, the lame duck 6th year offyear election, when the typical turnover in Congress usually skyrockets in favor of the out of WH party. That would be the Tea Party. Then some bills will likely start passing, although not the kind you lefties think should be passing. The Tea Party object being to either get those bills passed or have them vetoed, destroying the Left’s presidential candidate in 2016. See how this works?

                  In fact, the next 2 years after 2014 elections could be 2 of the most painful years your lefty brethren have seen in a century, at the US federal level. It’s already certain to be painful for them at the state and local levels. But you wouldn’t know that, as you seem a typical media absorbing lefty type. 😉

                  Can’t say for sure about UKIP. Their process is a bit more open ended. They need to liquidate Cameron, for starters.

              • mikewaller

                They, like your “principle conservatives”, are just millions of people, understandably terrified of the way in which the world is changing about them, who think that getting rid of the current crop of politicians will make it all nice again.

                Sadly, the key fact that underlies our present troubles is that we are rapidly coming to the end of 300 year atypical historical period during which the West – for the first time – has been streets ahead of China, technologically. According to a neighbour of mine who frequently visits China, even the educated Chinese have not fully grasped this. They still seem to think that what they have now is but a pale shadow of the West’s technological sophistication. It ain’t and no matter how many politician you sacrifice to the Sun God, it isn’t going to change a thing.

                The only real hope – a very distant one – is for the whole country to follow the advice Boxer, the noble carthorse, repeatedly gives himself in “Animal Farm”, “I must try harder”. Unfortunately, as your UKIP pigs (as in Animal Farm!!!!) morph into run of the mill politicians, the rest of us may well follow Boxer to the economic knacker’s yard.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Had to stop reading when you got to the “300 year” nonsense.

                  Always a waste of time to bother with one of you fantasists at work.

                • mikewaller

                  I do so admire a good loser.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  You admire the fantastical, it appears.

                  Which is a waste to we conservatives, who hew more to reality.

        • Daniel Maris

          Please spare us this nonsense about Romney. He lost by only a couple of percentage points. He was a poor candidate. Do you really doubt that Ronald Reagan selling the same policies would have won? I don’t.

          This centre v extreme trade off analysis is always overdone. People area always looking for credible leaders and credible policies. The reason policies dubbed “extreme” don’t often garner votes is because they also lack credibility. However, it is sometimes the case that centrist policies can also lack credibility.

          What we have now is a situation where the “centrist” policy on mass immigration is not credible – the idea we can absorb 400-500,000 new immigrants each year without serious negative effects. People are seeing the effects in their local schools and hospitals, and in their everyday surroundings.

          This is clearly why UKIP are gaining ground.

          • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

            Romney lost 47% – 51%. And 206-332 in the electoral college. Basically, he was hammered. No amount of ‘he was a poor candidate’ can account for that.

            But you are entitled to your own interpretation of reality. Stick w/ UKIP and Farage. The proof in the pudding will be the election results in 2015.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              No, that was a fairly pedestrian election. Nothing special in those electoral results. Willard is a lying progressive from Massachusetts, so he was always going to have a rough road. Obama couldn’t have chosen a weaker candidate.

              If you ask US conservatives, they’ll tell you almost exclusively that they’re better off with Obama for 4 years of lameduck presidency then a potential 8 years of the lying progressive Willard. And 2014 has the potential to bring on a firebreathing conservative president.

              That’s sort of what the UKIP folks are likely thinking. Put Cameron down first, and then allow Phase II to come into play.

              • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

                You stick to your version of reality sunshine, we’ll see you in 2015 at the election count.

  • HooksLaw

    Send a message that ‘we want a labour government’ seems the main point.

  • Colonel Mustard

    I’m not a member or supporter of UKIP but because I don’t feel properly represented by any of the so-called “mainstream” parties I shall probably vote for UKIP in any future elections. I’ve always voted Conservative but I no longer know what they actually stand for beyond some vague notion of appeasing and imitating lefties. They have done little or nothing they promised but my biggest gripe is their failed promise to “sweep away” Labour’s PC nanny state.

  • MirthaTidville

    There have been many good points made about this already and I agree that Cameron and his breath taking arrogance are the Conservatives main problem but UKIP are becoming a problem for Labour as well. Many of their members,especially in the North, are disenchanted with Mr Sneery Mouth`s simplistic solutions. I`m not saying Farage is the answer but he is,at least, providing an alternative that a lot of people are becoming interested in…

    Back to the original article…I have to say the phrase“ As Tory strategists try to work out how to win back these voters“ has given me the best laugh of the day!!

  • http://www.coffeehousewall.co.uk/ Coffeehousewall

    James, I don’t want a Tory Government, I want a conservative one. The Tories have shown consistently that they are not conservative at all, ergo, I don’t want them to be returned to Government. Indeed I would rather a the manifest socialism of the National Socialist party of Ed Milliband then the equally socialist but faux-conservative deceit of David Cameron.

    They are all the same and I want none of them.

    I am starting to develop projects in my own constituency to ensure that my own faux-conservative MP is not returned. A UKIP win would be great, a Conservative lose is a step in the right direction.

    • HooksLaw

      You want a racist one Mr Sicko supporter of the EDL. You are a nut job of the highest order.
      Equating Miliband with ‘national socialist’ whilst supporting the fascists of the EDL is a bit rich.

      • TomTom

        Whatever Party you support is one sane people should avoid…..a Cameron Groupie you say ? Well that’s warning enough !

      • EJ

        How is Coffeehousewall a racist? How is he a sicko? How is he a nutjob? Nasty Leftist smears and you should not be allowed to get away with it.

        He’s absolutely right. I don’t support the EDL but I quite understand why they formed. The country I grew up in is no longer recognisable – and if you think the hatred flows only from indigenous whites to non-whites try living in Bradford or Tower Hamlets. You people have no inkling of the trouble you have stored up for this country.

        • telemachus

          Have you ever looked at his site
          Renamed the Lennon-Robinson site

          • Malfleur

            Since only the far left allies of islamic extremism seem interested
            enough in Mr. Robinson to comment on or investigate Mr. Robinson’s
            predicament, but you telemachus show concern, I will add a couple of
            points to what Coffeehousewall said above to set you thinking, while we
            await some more facts at the hearing in Luton Magistrates Court on 13th
            January, in anticpation of which Mr. Robinson has been locked up in
            solitary confinement since late October for fear on the part of the
            authorities as to what the Religion of Peace might do to him for his
            views if allowed to mingle.

            As far as I can figure out, Tommy
            Robinson is actually now in the Category A prison at Milton Keynes,
            where to be fair they hold remand prisoners apparently as well as
            terrorists, while awaiting his hearing in Luton on 7th January.

            The
            Identity Documents Act 2010 under which he was charged on a count of
            having in his possession of a false identity document with an improper
            intention (possibly that of attending a conference in New York held on
            the anniversary of the destruction of the World Trade Center) has as its
            long title “An Act to make provision for and in connection with the
            repeal of the Identity Cards Act 2006″. The 2010 Act re-enacts some
            criminal offences, such as possession or use of false identity
            documents, and certain other measures contained in the Identity Cards
            Act 2006”.

            It would seem therefore that Theresa May, the
            Conservative who introduced the Identity Documents Bill in May 2010
            was, in this instance, approving the work of the Labour government in
            approving a line of legislation for which we had apparently not been
            able to find a solution in the period for reflection between Anglo-Saxon
            times and Tony Blair’s administration.

            Let us all contemplate
            the implications of the learned term “with improper intention” which
            seems to be somewhat broader than the term “fraudulent” which has served
            us well previously..

            In this elegant piece of drafting, Section 4 (2) illuminates the question:

            “(2) Each of the following is an improper intention—
            (a)the intention of using the document for establishing personal information about P [person – See Section 1];
            (b)the
            intention of allowing or inducing another to use it for establishing,
            ascertaining or verifying personal information about P or anyone else.
            (3)In
            subsection (2)(b) the reference to P or anyone else does not include,
            in the case of a document within subsection (1)(c), the individual to
            whom it relates.”

            The full text of Section 4 can be found at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/40/section/4

            Cases
            which I have found under the equivalent provision in the 2006 Act
            suggest it was invoked where people were trying to get into Britain or
            to extend their stay here in some
            manner.

            Mr. Robinson’s case appears to be, so far as the facts
            are known, a case where the offence was to use a document to get OUT of
            the country…to New York.

            Some reports have implied that an
            offence was committed upon Mr. Robinson presenting a passport to the US
            immigration authorities, which raises the possibility that the English
            courts are now proxies for the American government.

            Let’s wait until 13th January for further facts, while wishing Mr. Robinson and his wife and children a happy Christmas.

            Mind you, for someone who has on numerous occasions expressed admiration for Stalin, telemachus, this must all be most encouraging.

        • mikewaller

          It is no good standing in the corner stamping your foot and shouting. What could possibly be done to bring back the world you hanker after that would have a cat in hell’s chance of not bringing about disaster?

          That particular die has already been cast so grow up and get on with it. Apart from the highly marginal effects of encouraging white friends to have more children, you have about as much chance of changing things as did the poor old Native Americans when millions of our relatives arrived there!

          • EJ

            Oh trot that one out! And don’t tell me to grow up you patronising arse. You may be resigned to the fact that your race has had its day (how can you be SO pathetic?) but there are plenty of us who will fight to the death for our country, our ancestors and our childrens’ futures.

            • mikewaller

              So what, exactly, are you or your politicians of choice going to do? It really is not a question of fighting, exciting though that might sound. The core problem we face is that in the context of a globalised economy whilst we do have some millions of people who can make their way no trouble at all and a rather larger number who will be able to get by, we have far too many who will not be able to pay their way. I believe that Germany makes such a stonking success of things because she has more favourable numbers in each category.

              In seeking to deal with this we cannot, on our own,, back out of globalisation, trade is essential to our survival. Increasing the employability of those who struggle (one of this government’s core strategies) is highly desirable, but incredibly difficult. I predict that it will only meet with marginal success My guess is that the kind of economic stresses this situation will bring about will be reflected in an increasingly fractious political debate of which, with respect, I think you are indicative; and the most probable way of responding to that will be the abandonment of globalisation in favour of several huge trading blocks comprising economies with comparable economic backgrounds. How that will play out, God knows; but it certainly seems to me to be insane to chose this time to go it alone.. .

      • Malfleur

        In what way is the EDL racist? In what sense is the EDL fascist? You throw these words around until all sense is knocked out of them. Have some respect for language. The EDL is a one-issue organisation. On what aspect of that issue do you disagree with them?

    • telemachus

      Geez I bet your MP is shivering

    • mikewaller

      First, sadly for you, the UK as a whole does not want the basket of policies you want. Second, when you see what we have to pay in loan interest when dear old Miliballs gets into power, you will cry for Camservatism.

      • TomTom

        Crap. Interest Rates cannot go up or Bond Markets would colapse globally

        • mikewaller

          Tell that to the Spanish, Italians, Portuguese and Greeks.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        No difference on interest rates. Both the Millipedes and Cameroons spend like drunken sailors. Rates will stay low until the Central Bank stops buying bonds. Then they’ll skyrocket. Doesn’t matter which leftist group of nutters is in charge, Cameroonian or otherwise.

  • Border Boy

    It’s pretty clear that the Conservatives need to deliver on their immigration promises if they are to draw the UKIP sting, but no sign that they are truly resolved to put in place the logistics to do so. Let me help them:

    1. Improve the integrity of the visa issue process by interviewing those seeking visas – most visas at the moment are issued on the papers.

    2. Reduce and simplify the appeals process. Remove rights of appeal to those claiming to be undertaking family visits.

    3. Reduce the ability of those seeking to avoid removal through manifestly unfounded judicial review applications. This means dealing with an interventionist and arrogant judiciary, not easy but necessary.

    4. Improve management of our border controls. Get rid of the Customs managers who these day are dominant in the Border Force and return management to managers who know what operating an immigration control requires.

    There is plenty more, but this would do for starters.

    • echo34

      The home office arse-covering policies are the issue here. Watching your own back is the primary concern in UKBA.

      • Border Boy

        Maybe it is arse covering by UKBA, but it is at least as much an inability to deploy necessary resources combined with a lot of managers new to the problems thrashing round trying to work out what to do. Giving responsibility to those who have some genuine experience of the issues would be a start to sorting things out.

        The Border Force as a concept is complete disaster – immigration and customs were always separate operational functions for good reason.

        • echo34

          i agree with your last paragraph, in that immigration staff and customs staff have totally different work ethics, priorities and approaches to their work.

  • TomTom

    UKIP has been the only logical choice for Euro Elections for ages. In this area Macmillan Scott got elected for the Tories as top of their list and promptly jumped ship after the 2009 Election to the LibDems. Fascinating Party the Conservatives….the one party that pushed European integration from the time Grocer Heath was Chief Whip and his Cabinet in 1972 seemed thriled to go along selling out fishing and everything else they could pawn to Pompidou. Conservatives are a Party of Zero Credibility on Anything nowadays

    • telemachus

      It gladdens the cockles that you and Nico plan to vote for the bull eyed frog
      As we saw yesterday is merry men equate gays with paedophiles and the practitioners of incest

      • Invigilator

        Legal test comment

  • an ex-tory voter

    I believe a large proportion of the voters who have deserted the party are lifelong supporters who only left after a great deal of soul searching. The point is, their decision was taken only after a great deal of thought. These people are still “conservatives” and are politically aware. They therefore know the architect of the political shift which left them with no voice is “Dave”. As long as “Dave” remains as “leader”(?) they will not return.
    The truth is that despite the exodus his “tune” remains unchanged, why would any of these lost voters consider returning to a party led by this man?

    • Old Blue Eyes

      You describe me. I have voted Conservative in every general election since 1945. I have been a member, activist and on occasion agent in local elections. I am no longer a member and I will no longer vote for the party while Cameron is the leader.

      • MirthaTidville

        You and me both Old Blue Eyes

      • Keith

        And you voted for Heath.

        • TomTom

          Selsdon Man you mean….

      • D B

        I bet you will come back. Old loyalties die hard.

    • telemachus

      So if the incompetent David Davis took over it would all be OK?

      • http://www.coffeehousewall.co.uk/ Coffeehousewall

        Have you not yet realised that your views are irrelevant and unnoticed. Your name comes up and automatically your post is marked down and the reader scans downwards avoiding any mental contact with the effluvia you post.

        I would only wish that the site was redesigned so that any post which received more than a certain number of negative marks just disappeared. Then we would not have to even hasten past the stench emanating from your disturbed mind, a mind which takes pleasure in the genital mutilation of little girls.

        • telemachus

          Spoken well as the master of the Lennon-Robinson porn site

          • Invigilator

            Legal test comment.

  • Russell

    Mission Impossible

    At least for the Conservative party to get my vote in either the MEP elections or the next General Election. I have voted Conservative at every General Election since I was old enough to vote (currently 64 years old), and will vote UKIP at the next EU and General Election.

    Sick of the non action wrt cutting the size of the public sector, reducing waste in government, failure to control immigration and non expulsion of illegal immigrants/rejected asylum seekers/ terrorists, no in/out EU referendum, gay ‘marriage'(sic) to name just a few areas of failure.

    I don’t even care any more if as a result of voting UKIP an incompetent libDem MP gets elected.in my marginal LibDem constituency.

    • HooksLaw

      Do you realise the loss of public sector jobs taking place. Have you seen that Angus Maude has quadrupled the govts waste target to 20 billion? Are you aware of the 25% cut in departmental budgets? Do you remember the extra 1 or 2% cuts in budgets announced in the Autumn Statement?

      Are you aware of the OBR saying 710,000 public sector jobs are to be lost? Indeed eventually they are saying 1.1 million public sector jobs will go.

      Are you really so happy (on the basis of clear hysteria) to see labour overturn the conservative education reforms? Do you want Labour to take us deeper into Europe?
      If your attitude is successful the results are clear – a pro Euro pro public sector pro govt waste pro immigration pro gay pro multicultural pro human rights anti education labour party led by an acolyte of Gordon Brown.

      By his own words Clegg admitted yesterday that he is the roadblock to the reforms you want, yet you turn round and say you don’t care if a LD is elected to your constituency.
      Where were you when the logic genes were being given out?

      • Derek

        Nonsense. Acquiesce all you like. It’s thanks to apathy that the political class acts in its own interests rather than electors. It’s time for electors to act in their own interest rather than voting tactically for the least bad option.

      • TomTom

        Logic Genes ? You are weird

      • Russell

        The time of scaremongering is over. Many millions I hope will vote for a party that best reflects their views. The elctorate have seen what labour does to the country and they have seen what the Conservatives are doing (admittedly in a coalition with the wet LibDems). Threats about what will happen if people vote for a party which shares their views won’t cut it any more. Cameron and many Conservative Ministers don’t get it. people are not going to vote for them whatever the electoral result brings.

        • mikewaller

          Are you sure that here are that number of folks who want compulsory abortions on the NHS?

          • TomTom

            Not sure they could do any more – besides they are carried out PRIVATELY and paid for by the NHS

      • AnotherDaveB

        Gov’t spending has increased since the 2010 election. Cuts in one place have been counterbalanced by larger increases elsewhere.

        http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/331505/austerity-uk-edition-part-2-veronique-de-rugy

      • davey12

        I want Labour.

        5 more years of Labour should be enough for a permanent left wing government. I want all those lefties to see the mess before I pop my clogs.

        Voting Cameron we get a delay we get a little delay, what fun is that?

    • mikewaller

      Breaking news: It has just been reported that some freedom-loving UKIP candidate has just called for the NHS to carry out compulsory abortions. Thank God for the time being we still have access to the European Court of Human Rights!

      More seriously, as voting for UKIP will have the effect of splitting the right-wing vote, and comprehensively rubbishing the LDs will enable Labour to consolidate the left-wing vote, cutting off your nose to spite your face hardly seems to meet your case. Your position is even more problematic because of (a) its internal contractions – cutting the public sector is hardly compatible with the large numbers of state employees needed to locate and remove illegals – and (b) with most of the areas you list except Europe and Immigration (and what, honestly, is UKIP going to do there, save booting out white EC citizens) – the popular mood seems to be more with Cameron than you.

      • barbie

        And we can also report Nigel Farage sacked him from the party and even if he wins he will not be representing UKIP. Hows that for quick and decisve action? This man has got real bad ideas and is just a hic up that any party could have. On the same token, one Tory MP as called for a bill to make vouchers for benefit claimants to stop them spending money on waste items. Of course how they will pay their untility bills is not stated. Another odd ball, all parties have them it seems.

  • http://twitter.com/jatrius john hall

    It’s not a Conservative problem. It’s a Cast-Iron Dave problem. UKIP voters will simply never trust the man again. Any putative strategy to win them back loses sight of this most basic problem.

    • alexsandr

      so who would replace Dave and be credible? The only possible is member for Howden and Howtenprice cos he isnt tainted with the current lot. But where would he draw his cabinet from?

    • Chris

      Absolutely. Cameron is just distrusted massively by core conservative and potential conservative voters. Of course he is also distrusted by everyone else. He has mismanged the basic politics and been careless with the Tory party.

      And why The Speccie keeps mentioning a UKIP/Tory pact, utterly beats me. It would be a serious mistake for UKIP to do that.

      UKIP is getting potential voters from across the political spectrum, including astonishingly, many LibDems.

      Yes it is a protest vote but many voters have just had enough, they regard it as time to protest, they have been pushed too far, the main parties just will not listen. Voters are disgusted by the economic incompetence of Brown & Balls, the Iraq war on a false pretext from Blair, the uncontrolled and quite deliberate immigration to change Britain, for ever, from NuLabour.

      From Cameron & Co the failure to allow a vote on Lisbon, the attack on the status of the family & marriage and the “pastie” tom foolery by Osborne who just did not grip spending when he took over. Osborne is just not upto the job yet Cameron stands by him just as Blair foolishly stood by Brown.

      The 2014 EU ellections are going to be a real shock. There is no recovery for Cameron now. Australian spinmaster or not. It is not the spinning that is the problem, it is the message.

      • EJ

        HEAR HEAR!

      • telemachus

        Your analysis of Cameron has a ring but you are wrong about Brown and Balls
        Balls in particular is the only politician who has a blueprint to lift us out of recession while caring for the poor and needy

        • Ron Todd

          Will that be public school boy Ed Balls? Another posh socialist.

        • Chris

          TM

          I am even handed, you on the other hand, are highly selective and partial. It shows.

          Balls is/was a core part of the dream team that got the country into the current mess.

          As economically incompetent and illiterate, as his Master.

        • barbie

          I find that had to believe as Balls was working with Brown for over 10 years and presided over his policies, as for a blue print to get us out of recession, borrowing more is not the answer. They created that much debt we can’t really borrow more. Cameron as borrowed more than he should, but thats down to the situation they found themselves in after the general election. Sorry Balls is not the man to get us out of trouble but make it worse.

        • mikewaller

          I think the personal abuse to which you are exposed is a disgrace to this site. However, I think your faith in Balls wholly misguided.

          • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

            Call it a badge of honour (the abuse that is)!

      • mikewaller

        Your forecast is almost certainly correct and at the same time, deeply, deeply depressing. The underlying problem is a massive shift in the world order from West to East which is going to leave us increasingly marginalised, particularly if outside the EC. Against this background, the behaviour you are predicting is just shooting the poor old messenger on a grand scale.

        If I am wrong, please share with us the brilliant master plan that, say, Farage has up his sleeve that is going enable us to move up the global pecking order? Sadly, I am not holding my breath.

        • echo34

          Please Mike, keep holding it…

        • barbie

          Trade on a global scale like we used to that’s what, instead of the insular trading we now have to endure with the EU millstone round our necks.

          • mikewaller

            I always wondered what was holding the Germans back.

  • alexsandr

    I dont think he can. He has shown to be untrustworthy re the referendum on Lisbon treaty, and has been shown to be weak on immigration. The immigration issue is praps a bit unfair – he may have had his hands tied behind his back by the limp dems.

    I think the 3 main parties are in for an unholy mauling at the european parliament elections next year, and maybe in the locals too. Cos cameron may be piss-poor on immigration and the EU but the limp dems and labour are at least as bad. And all politicians are universally hated by the electorate, which cannot be good for democracy.

    • Russell

      I actually believe that ‘all politicians being universally hated by the electorate’ is a good thing for democracy. Perhaps we might never get taken into illegal wars, MP’s and Lords expenses theft or bankruptcy in the future if we hate them so much we watch every move they make and question their motives,

      • HarryG

        What illegal war? I thought the Iraq war (which I assume you’re referring to) was agreed by Parliament. Isn’t that the way we do things in this country? Or are you suggesting that the UK is not/should not be a sovereign country?

        • wrinkledweasel

          HarryG, do you still take sweeties from strangers as well? The “illegal” war, yes the Iraq war, was illegal on several counts, but primarily it, like all wars, was predicated on lies.

          Democracy, by the way, will be swept away by democracy when the immigrants in this country reach a level (in the not too distant future) when they can simply, by use of postal voting, sweep away British patriots and those of us who hold freedom dear.

          The result of mass immigration and the subsequent population explosion will render your nice arguments about democracy redundant. It will cease to exist.

        • an ex-tory voter

          It was illegal to the extent that it was built on a lie, or should I say a dodgy dossier. As the ghost of David Kelly will testify.

          • TomTom

            The ICC can find only individuals to have committed crimes, not
            governments.However, the unauthorized use of force or threat of use of force by a
            member state of the UN violates the UN Charter………..

        • TomTom

          Yes but there is “International Law” as set out at Nuremberg and in the International Criminal Court at The Hague……ordinary British Soldiers are caught on this but the politicians get off scot-free like Blair

      • mikewaller

        I think that the hatred you describe says rather more about the hater than the hated. The horrible truth is that the Caucasian (I am one) has largely had his/her day. It need not have come so quickly had not labour spent much of the postwar era demanding more and more for less and less and capital reacted by moving manufacturing out to much cheaper labour markets. In the short run, labour still in jobs was pretty pleased with the very cheap goods it was able to buy, but what went largely unnoticed was the massive skills transfers that followed from the transfer of manufacturing. Now shorn of our technological edge, we are going to face harder and harder times.

        Kicking politicians may make you feel better but it just so happens that they are the only group who have any chance of making the management of decline semi-tolerable rather than wholly intolerable. So, really, it would be more constructive were you to kick your own posterior.

        • TomTom

          Pathetic. You have had your day. Defeatist failure. You should become extinct but Whte Europeans will not.

          • mikewaller

            I am deeply impressed by your penetrating refutation. You are perhaps proposing to make “defeatism” a capital offence? Once again the poor old messenger is in the frame.

        • EJ

          Words fail me. You hateful, defeatist surrender monkey.

          • coffeehousewall.co.uk

            He may well be of French descent?

        • jazz6o6

          Mike, it might have been a good idea to find out who the Caucasians are before predicting their demise.

          • mikewaller

            A term sometimes used in American English to describe white people in general

            Specifically in American English, denoting White Americans

            I use it for the same reason they do; it seems somehow racially neutral

            • foxoles

              What does the quality of ‘our’ workforce matter when ethnic minorities are given jobs via positive discrimination because (eg below) we are told ‘the monoculture had to be challenged’?

              A white applicant, however well-qualified and competent, would not have been allowed to apply for one of these ‘Diversify’ traineeships:

              http://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/comment/01022012-vox-pop

              • mikewaller

                May well be the case in respect of those jobs, but in the economy in general, telephone applicants claiming identical qualifications are far less likely to be told the job is already filled if they give a good old Anglo-Saxon name. The only exception seems to be the generally favourable responses to Polish names from people who have previously employed Poles. And Poland, we have just been told, is the only EC country not to have had a recession since 2008.

                If you saw the Evan Davis programme sometime last year in which he got immigrants temporarily to give up their jobs so that these could be filled by unemployed folks born here, you will know the results were terrifying. Out of about a dozen, the only UK born guy who held his end up was an carpenter who had himself worked in Germany.

                It is no good scapegoating or sticking your head in the sand, either the less effective elements in our workforce up their game or we perish, crushed by the weight of welfare. We’ve been told for seventy years or more, “Nobody owes us a living”; now is the time to start believing it. As the various governments we have since the war have destroyed the possibility of Keynesian stimuli by overuse (as with antibiotics) and massive overspending, it is the people who will have to save themselves.

                • Ron Todd

                  If it was an Evan Davis programme I would assume that it was a BBC programme, they would hardly create a programme that was in the least bit negative about immigration.

                • mikewaller

                  In general terms I would agree. One of the characteristics of the liberal is a tendency to privilege being nice over being truthful, although I find that infinitely preferable to the converse tendency of privileging hatred over truth.

                  That said, I was fairly satisfied with the Evan Davis programme. It was far too small a sample to be statistically significant but it did chime in with my experience many years ago when I was what used to be called a personnel manager. I worked for three different firms in a Northern new town Two were well established and I found I could do little about changing the workforces both of which seemed hell-bent on closing the places down. At the third, I started with a relatively clean slate and worked very hard to build up an effective team. In the end I succeed but the number of people I had to interview-per-post-filled, shocked me.

                  It was of course an extreme case, but I even had one guy sent to me by the Job Centre because they wanted him of their books, who suddenly dropped to his knees in the middle of the production hall and begged me “as a Christian man” NOT to give him a job!

                  Given the present state of the economy I have no doubt that there are now hundreds of thousands of able workers out their desperately looking for work. Sadly, they are now standing in a globalised virtual job queue and are up against competitors in dozens of other countries many of whom equally well qualified or better, ditto in terms of motivation and a lot cheaper. That, in short, is the problem we face and you could hang politicians on lampposts from Lands End to John O’Groats and still not change it.

                • Ron Todd

                  I have interviewed people often it is a case of taking the best on offer and hoping they can be trained up.

                • coffeehousewall.co.uk

                  Indeed it would have been intended to show the opposite.

    • HooksLaw

      He did not break any promise on Lisbon.

    • EJ

      It is NOT just about Europe. Conservative (with a small “c”) voters are transferring allegiance to UKIP because UKIP have the conservative principles and policies that appeal to them – the principles and policies which the Tories (under Cameron) have abandoned.

      For example, the biggest issue for conservatives apart from the economy is immigration and the overwhelming demographic transformation of our country. Most of us see that within twenty or thirty years we will be a minority in our own land and that this process will result in civil strife on an unprecedented scale. While the Tories dance around the issue, the situation gets worse and worse. UKIP say they will do something about it.

      The same can be said for any of the major issues that conservatives care about: crime, the death of free speech, the stranglehold of the Left on all our institutions, Islamification, the abuse of welfare, the decline of our schools and so on. It is UKIP who promises action on these issues.

      So anyone thinking that UKIP can be belittled and dismissed as a fringe of one-issue, swivel-eyed loons has a very nasty shock coming their way.

      • mikewaller

        “UKIP say they will do something about it” says it all for me. What the hell can they do, short of building a time machine and stopping Enoch Powell making his first visit to the West Indies to recruit nurses? The merest suggestion of carting millions of new commonwealth immigrants off to the docks and airports would guarantee a wide range of very negative reactions from their kin and coreligionists in other lands. Loss of trade would be just the start of it.

        We are where we are and as far as I can see the only serious possibility of doing something about illegal immigration died with the killing off of Gordon Brown’s identity card scheme. It was going to be massively expensive, it might well not have worked, but it did at least give a chance of getting a handle on the problem.

        I have to say that each time I see Farage he comes across to me as glinting toothed car salesman who is trying to sell me a rusting heap of junk on the basis that it will be the perfect solution to all my motoring needs.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …so he’s similar to Cameron, then?

          • mikewaller

            He is like any other politician trying to garner votes from an electorate with totally unrealistic hopes and expectations. That’s the route down which we force them and when, inevitably, they cannot deliver, we start screaming that they are liars.

            Stand aside, look t it coolly and the poor old politician is like some servant being screamed at by some grossly immature employer for not achieving the impossible.

            • echo34

              i see it’s the electorate fault. Not that we have the biggest conmen in history sitting in parliament.

              • mikewaller

                Do you actually know anything about Robert Walpole, Lloyd George, Horatio Bottomley etc etc etc?

            • TomTom

              So why doesn’t Osborne simply admit he has failed ?

            • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

              Its a two way street, no one made the Tories commit to cut net migration to <100k per year, a number they have almost no chance of achieving. And for the v. tiny subsection of the population who posts here (+ UKIP supporters), even that number seems far too high.

              • RobertC

                “no one made the Tories commit to cut net migration to <100k per year"

                What about vote earning potential?

                Just like, "I'm a Euro-sceptic"!

              • coffeehousewall.co.uk

                Net immigration is a bogus statistic. Most people want hugely reduced immigration full stop.

        • alexsandr

          we could stop bailing illegals when arrested. Just shove em on a plane.

          • mikewaller

            Now why has that not been thought of before? Possibly because the vast majority don’t come in that way and those that do, destroy their documents.

            • TomTom

              Put them in a Detention Camp in Sutherland

            • coffeehousewall.co.uk

              Then they should be sent to the last country they came from or from whatever country they can be reasonably deduced to have come from. If necessary take DNA and have it scanned against a database of genetic communities.

        • EJ

          I fully realise we’re f*cked – but I will give my support to those I
          think will do most to stand up for us and that is no longer the
          Conservatives. Seeing as I blame Labour for a large proportion of the
          culturally displaced mess we’re in and I can’t stand the bed-wetting Lib Dums – that leaves UKIP.

          And I’d take Farage any day over the H2B (you call Farage a car salesman?!), the Marxist student gonk or the man who is sorry (until he gets his EU pension). They are all lying scumbags – but at least Farage has the balls to stand up and fight for conservative principles. Dave won’t.

          • mikewaller

            Apart from Punch and Judy stuff about Europe and immigration plus one of guys having just suggested that the NHS should carry out compulsory abortions, I am a tad unclear what UKIP actually intends doing.

          • coffeehousewall.co.uk

            We have to support UKIP whatever the short term outcomes. Being told to vote Conservative just because of some other outcome is not democracy.

        • TomTom

          How would Gordon Brown’s ID Card (not his btw but EU) have solved any problem ? The plan to charge each Citizen £60 but to issue them free to Asylum Seekers was bizarre. The essence of an ID Card System is the database – the Germans have one at the Einwohnermeldeamt and each time you move or have a child full details must be registered….they also have the AZR for Foreigners. So the joys of registering each time you move house or change occupancy of a building….but of course Britain would have Central Computer linked into other EU computers and medical computers and tax computers plus DNA Database………….and the Suckers would pay for an ID Card………..just how would that stop Immigration unless you made Medical Treatment and Schooling dependent upon presenting an ID Card………..with each school, GP Surgery buying an electronic Card Reader ?

          • mikewaller

            All very true, but it is the only way or which I can think that would enable us to get a grip on illegal immigration IF it could be made to work.

            • coffeehousewall.co.uk

              There is enough room on the Isle of Wight for all immigrants and would require a density less than that of Paris.

        • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

          Mike – interesting you focus your posts on illegal immigration. I presume this is deliberate or am I missing something? Most of the posters here (myself excluded) seem to have an issue w/ legal immigration as much as illegal immigration. You focus only on illegal?

          • mikewaller

            I think that it follows from my original point. No doubt millions of white Britons would like this country to go back to a state in which seeing a non-white face was quite an event. But that just ain’t going to happen; As the wonderful Mo Farrow said in amazement when asked would he sooner have won his gold for Somalia, “No, this is my home”.(or something like that). So assuming that ethnic cleansing is not on the cards which one has to hope it is not, the only groups that can be reduced are illegals and asylum seekers. With regard the former, the key problem seems to be the enormous manpower that would be needed to bring about a major reduction, assuming a technological fix will never work. We would then face the usual problems with the hard cases in which deportation seems unreasonable and those where we have no idea where to deport the person to. That said, effort must be stepped up in this area not least because the indigenous population is getting increasingly cross.

            With asylum-seekers, God knows, Modern transport means they can come in ever increasing numbers, but unless you are prepared to send folk back to almost certain death, it is very hard to know what to do.

            All that said, any immigrant group who, having moved here, thinks it can just carry on in its own sweet way, ignoring British sensibilities, customs and notions of right and wrong, is stoking up serious problems for immigrants as a whole.

            • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

              I agree with most of this FWIW. Particularly that you are firmly grounded in reality and not in fantasy / ideology. The American experience of cracking down on “illegals” shows that’s its both expensive and has horrific social costs. Asylum seekers have been falling over time, now down to about 20k a year, a mere rounding error. Agree on need for immigrants to integrate. Our Muslim street corner preachers are deeply unhelpful. Human contact matters a great deal. On #s of illegals, worth looking at Jonathan Portes’ blog. He has an interesting piece of analysis showing this number may be much lower than previously thought.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                What “horrific social costs” are you speaking of? How is it “expensive”?

                • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

                  I’m afraid you are going to have to do your own research on this one but try looking at Frontline (a PBS documentary) or articles in the NY TImes etc.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  No, it won’t do for you to jabber nonsense and then say others must prove the negative.

                  Provide backup to your claims of “horrific social costs” and “expensive”, else we must assume you fantasized them.

                • http://twitter.com/rlpkamath Rahul Kamath

                  Assume anything you like , not my business to educate you.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Yes, apparently, it’s your business to fantasize and blurt out unsupported inanities.

                  And sorry, ace, but it’s fairly certain it’d be impossible for you to provide education on this topic, as your flight from the discussion seems to confirm.

            • coffeehousewall.co.uk

              Mo Farah lives in America and is not British in any meaningful sense. He will go wherever he can get the greatest income. Which is why he does not live here.

    • D B

      He broke no promise over the Lisbon Treaty. Look at the facts.

      • Colonel Mustard

        So what. He’s broken plenty of others and he is no conservative. He is a lefty masquerading as a conservative. If that is not correct then his problem with communicating a cogent message is even bigger than I think it is.

        • HooksLaw

          Of course he is a conservative. Sadly for you he is not a bigoted conservative.
          The notion that he is a ‘lefty’ is so laughable that you clearly need to get medical help.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Fortunately we are still free to express opinions about politics whether you like them or not. Suggesting I need medical help for those opinions is a Soviet trick for dissidents I believe. It’s not just me though, plenty of opinion around the media about Dave’s soft left credentials. He has become a joke – whether justifiably or unjustifiably.

            You do realise that the more you rant and abuse people who are instinctively conservative but suspicious of Dave the less attractive the party is? If that doesn’t bother you then why go around heckling anti-Dave opinions like a dog worrying a bone?

            • http://www.coffeehousewall.co.uk/ Coffeehousewall

              HooksLaw is really a troll of the worst and slimiest kind. Every thread he/she posts on feels dirty. It is interesting that he/she doesn’t post at the same time as Telemucus, and the name may well be just another one used by that collective.

          • mikewaller

            Careful, you will soon be told to go and live abroad. It can be very upsetting! [:-)]

            • Colonel Mustard

              I see you are again misrepresenting my comments. Being told to do so and being told you are free to do so are not the same.

      • Vulture

        Oh, but I’m afraid he did. Lie that is. In the Sun. No ifs or buts. No qualified ‘unless LIsbon is already ratified’ No: a ‘cast iron’ guarantee of repeal. Cameron lies about the big things as glibly as he does about the little ones ( Cornish pasties; being persuaded by his unborn daughter to watch the X-Factor; or was it Britain’s Got Talent?); Face it guys: your boy speaks with forked tongue every time its seen emerging from his hen’s arse of a mouth.

        • No, No, ******* No

          2007 letter to Sun readers – “Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations. No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum.”

          I’m afraid you interpreted it the way you wanted to. Brown had not long been PM and he had no reason to believe that he would have to wait 3 years before he would have a shot at being PM himself. Nobody can say he had post ratification in mind. “No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum.” – It wouldn’t be consulting them on the treaty, would it? It would be an In/Out referendum…

          • an ex-tory voter

            Correction. Most people interpreted it the way Cameron intended.

          • Fernando5

            It’s quite clear to me and was at the time: the treaty will not be ratified unless the voters have had a say in a referendum. However, once the treaty had been ratified, a referendum would have been meaningless. It would have been a waste of money and probably the Libdems and Labour would have boycotted it as irrelevant. Our partners would have just told us to accept what our PM (Brown) signed up to, irrespective of the result.
            The blame should attach to Clegg and Brown for denying us a referendum before ratification, not Cameron for facing up to reality once the other two had sold the pass,.

            • foxoles

              It would not have been a waste; it would have strengthened Dave’s negotiating hand immeasurably.
              Interesting that he didn’t want that to happen.

          • barbie

            The problem was Labour ratified it and said nothing till the deed was done. There was really nothing Cameron could do to alter that, but he could have held a referendum and have the weight of that in his arms to seek a renegociation, he didn’t put up a fight and he’s rebuked for it. We now see the problems from this, Labour did a bad deed, again, for the British people, I don’t blame Cameron for that but do for his weakness in fighting for change.

    • MinnieOvens

      “And all politicians are universally hated by the electorate, which cannot be good for democracy.”
      Democracy? I thought that meant voting for a person/party who had the same or nearest opinions and principles to one’s self.
      Went missing in Britain sometime ago. Rumour has it that it was strangled to death by politicians.

    • Heartless etc.,

      But Cameron ……. without repelling more optimistic voters

      Your key word is repelling . The man is repellant, whatever policies he has (if any exist) are repellant, all he does, has done, and plans to do is repellant.

      We only wait for the rotting remnants of what was the Tory Party to slide into the political gutter at some point.

  • Archimedes

    “the most frequently stated reason is to send a message to the big parties on Europe and immigration”

    Indeed, so while a Conservative-UKIP pact might be unpopular, talking about it does give credence to the notion that voting UKIP is effective way to send a message. By obsessing over UKIP, like Fabricant’s recent paper, the Conservatives are aiding leaks of voters to UKIP. If they want to stop that, the best way to do it is going to be to take a strong stance against UKIP.

    • alexsandr

      unless the tories wither and die and UKIP becomes the new right of centre party. Like labour replaced the Liberals as the main left of centre party inm the early 20th century. Dafter things have happened!

      • Archimedes

        It seems unlikely. More realistically it could cause a split in the Conservative party, but it will be one of those factions that becomes the new right of centre.

      • TomTom

        Like REFORM took over the Canadian Conservatives – Reform came out of Western Canada

Close