Coffee House

Why the government should clamp down on health tourism

13 October 2012

1:39 PM

13 October 2012

1:39 PM

One of the problems with the welfare state is that the contributory principle too often gets lost. People’s faith in the whole system is undermined when they see those who haven’t put it, or even tried to, taking out.

A classic example of this is ‘health tourists’, those who come here from abroad with the deliberate aim of taking advantage of the medical care offered by the NHS. Too little is being done to address this problem. The Daily Mail reports today that ‘New guidelines tell doctors across England they must register any foreign patient who asks for care otherwise it would be ‘discriminatory’.’ The problem with this is that it will make it much easier for those seeking treatment for either non-urgent or chronic conditions to access the full range of NHS care.

There are those who’ll claim that the sums of money involved in all this are relatively small in comparison to the whole health budget. But as Chris Skidmore, the smart new Tory MP who has been leading a campaign on this issue, says, ‘This is not just about the money, vital though that is – we cannot have the NHS, paid for by taxpayers, being abused by people who pay nothing into the system and who are not eligible for free care.’ If the Tories want to be the party of the NHS, then they must be prepared to tackle this problem.

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Show comments
  • Thabo

    “As you very well know the British Empire was simply the hegemony of the
    English over first the Welsh, Irish and Scots and then much of the non
    European world.”

    The first king of Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland was a Scot: James I.

    Wherever one went in the British Empire, one found not just the English, but Scots, Irish and Welsh.

    “The way back to greatness is to embrace the world”. Greatness for whom? No us, we are already under the EU yoke.

    ” telemachus

    James102: Just what is so wrong about listening to the Mullahs
    Islam is a religion of peace
    We
    need to laud and promote the reasonable mullahs to prevent the
    fundamentalists getting to the disaffected that occur in every society
    My point is that it is your very hostility which pushes them to radicalism and Jihad.”
    From the Koran:

    2:193- Fight them on until there is no more tumult and
    religion becomes that of Allah

    8:12- I will instil terror into the hearts of the
    unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off
    them

    9:5 reads: “Slay the idolaters wherever you find
    them”.
    Those are fundamental Muslim beliefs. Every Muslim believes every word in the Koran. Even the “reasonable Mullahs”.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/NHCPI2N7JUTCI5JAKQJXQHHWP4 roger

    Medical tourism ? Look at Dental tourism, fly to Split, Croatia, go to a private dental clinic and have world class work done for a fraction of the cost of the same work in the UK.
    That tells us that NHS dentistry is a disgrace, all the quality work seems to be private.
    One experience of the Dental Estimates Board told me why NHS dentistry is of poor quality, its pricing is forced down too much.

  • Framer

    If there is no barrier to registration there should at least be a rule that GPs check and record everyone’s nationality and immigration status so we can charge for treatment, particularly in hospitals – where we are entitled to.
    This matters most in relation to EU countries where we pay out a billion a year and get next to nothing in return especially in regards to pensioners.

  • Jez

    Nice post WW1 pre WW2 tin globe in the photo above.
    Is that a follow up to twist the knife; what we were as British then, the places we opened up, the optimism and the Commonwealth that held together in two World wars.
    And what we’ve become now- a country in the grips of a pseudo Marxist social experiment via NuLabour with some city shysters (try saying that after a jug of Pimms) denying that there’s anything even called the British as we were previously known.
    I must eradicate such disgusting thought crimes as these, i know. I can startby reading up my 8 year olds Black History month literature he’s bringing home from school right now- and of course increase my tax payments to finance many people from the third world to have treatment on the NHS.
    Excellent.

  • Madame Merle

    This is the trouble with having free movement of people, they tend to gravitate to the place they know they will be better off.

    The entire world knows that if one is poor, sick, uneducated, unemployable or criminal, the best place to head for is the UK.

    It’s a one way traffic and that puts a dispropotionate strain on the country’s resources.

  • ehup

    (Sura (8:55) – Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve) … infidel!

    • anonymous

      eh? to whom are you replying?

  • Dogsnob

    I notice that my post here from yesterday has been taken down. Nice to see the spirit of free speech being upheld here under the command of Abu Nelson.

  • alexsandr
  • SimonToo

    Of course declining to register health tourists is discriminatory. It discriminates between those who have contributed to the system and those who have not. What merit is there in being indiscriminate ?

  • TomTom

    Other countries do not appear to have the same problem, possibly because the Insurance Principle (abolished in the 1930s by Neville Chamberlain when the Fund ran out of money) exists and Members have ID Cards for care. Asylum seekers do not get to “live in the community” but in defined areas with medical clinics on-site. The NHs is simply lax and built for an era of Closed Borders on an Island not for being a Railway Exchange for Global Tourism.

    There are certain areas where you find it really hard to get appointments for hospital treatment and where you know people are getting prescriptions made out for family abroad and it is farcical. The Welfare State is incompatible with Globalisation and simply part of the DfID Budget. Considering the Nation BORROWS the entire NHS Budget each year and calls it “The Deficit” is frankly ludicrous

  • drjohngalan

    The first thing you see inside the entrance to a French
    hospital is the cash desk. Before
    treatment they will establish how you are going to pay. When you finish your consultation with a
    French GP he/she asks you for payment.
    The NHS, because of its inherent structure, simply is not geared up to
    accept payment, despite the army of bureaucrats that seem to be milling around
    every hospital.

    The revered way in which the NHS is viewed in
    the UK will be its downfall. It needs
    radical reform and “free at the point of use”, while a noble objective, is no
    longer viable in the modern world.
    People using such a service need to appreciate that it costs, with
    safeguards in place for those who cannot pay (but are entitled through the
    social security system). I am sure that
    many of the walk-in visitors to A & E with just a minor cut would think
    again, when the price of hospital treatment is considerably more than the price
    of a sticking plaster.

  • peri
  • Thomas Paine

    What is then boys? Hug a hoodie or bash a burglar? PC free for all, come on in your human rights are top priority even if you are a thief, rapist or even a terrorist?

    Or some kind of rebalancing in favour of the indigenous population (if we are allowed to write such a phrase these days without being banged up for three months by the twitter police for offending the country’s professional offence-taking class?

    If Cameron or MiliE are looking for votes there’s even more in sorting this nonsense out than in telling the EU to naff off.

  • Justathought

    I would like the Tory leadership to produce a manifesto clearly stating which competencies they seek to repatriate from the EU. I don’t trust DC when he proposes that we give him our vote and for us to let them sort out the details after an election.

    550,000 people immigrated to the UK in the past year, and are not likely to have contributed to the pot. Of this number 50% are EU immigrants and are legally entitled to avail themselves of welfare as necessary. The other 50% non-EU immigrants are deemed to satisfy our own immigration policy and are also entitled therefore to welfare as necessary.

    The cost of health tourism is miniscule compared to the total budget requirements of providing health cover for 550,000 new immigrants every year. People say that this is mitigated by the 250,000 healthy families who emigrate every year. This is unfair to our elderly who have worked hard all their lives for a secure retirement.

    At the conference we were told to expect 1 million new jobs which I don’t doubt but who will get the lions share of these jobs?

    • alexsandr

      you say ‘Of this number 50% are EU immigrants and are legally entitled to avail themselves of welfare as necessary’ Ys, but we are entitled to reclaim the treatment costs from their country of origin. But the NHS does not have the infrastructure to check if people are eligible for treatment. so they dont bother.

  • toco10

    It cannot be equitable that hard working UK taxpayers pay into the welfare system for decades just to see economic migrants come over here and help themselves to their contributions in terms of the free NHS,housing benefit,education,generous weekly out-of-work cash payments…..The next Election will be fought on the grounds of discrimination against the vast majority of the British people who have proudly supported the UK through generations to build a decent place for their children and grandchildren-it is time the silent majority called the shots.

    • Madame Merle

      I quite agree, toco but we have to get this sorted out while we are still the majority. Am I the only one to feel a sense of urgency, the demographic is ticking away like a time-bomb?

  • Eric

    The technique is that a tourist with a serious condition goes to see a Doctor with a minor complaint, but sufficient for an examination. During the examination the serious condition is identified by the Doctor, who is then obliged to arrange treatment for it.
    That is why the NHS is known as the InterNational Health Service!

  • IRISHBOY

    Of course an important point is raised by this post, but it is only one of many ways in which holding British Nationality confers no advantage to a Briton in the UK, often the contrary is the case. Like the open door immigration policy or leaving our armed forces dependent on foreign powers for major items of kit and the country in no position to protect itself, the people are never consulted and how few journalists are prepared to ostracise themselves from the Westminster club to speak truth to power and properly and wholly inform their readers?

    • Wilhelm

      Liberal Totalitarianism, Sovietization of Britain and the destruction of England by mass immigration and multiculturalism by Dr Frank Ellis

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X6qOPNEUg8

    • James102

      Our political class do not believe in the concept of nationality that is why it gives no privileges to Britons.
      We are merely bipedal work units to both the left and libertarian right.

    • telemachus

      The Guardian folk do

      • James 102

        What they would discriminate between UK citizens and foreigners and treat UK citizens better? That is what the privileges of nationality are about.

  • Wilhelm

    Many diseases that died out in Britain like TB and rabies are making a ” welcome ” come back due to the benefits of mass immigration. This ” gentleman ” came here with Congo fever, Hmm, I wonder what continent that comes from ?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2214490/Tribute-paid-married-father-38-died-UKs-case-Crimean-Congo-fever.html

    • dalai guevara

      Hahaha said the indigenous American Indian when the white man brought in syphilis and alcohol addiction. Hahaha said the African when the white American brought in AIDS.

      What the hell are you on about?

      • sponner

        You do know where AIDS is said to have originated. Not that many monkeys in the US of A.

        • dalai guevara

          Does it matter? The European ‘colonists’ have brought far more disease to the world than vice versa.

    • Justathought

      Wilhelm you can now pick up ‘New Delhi metallo-1’ at a hospital near you. So as not to offend we are asked not to refer to it by this name (and also its damaging to the health tourism trade to that region)

    • TomTom

      They used to screen immigrants for TB then stopped

  • Wilhelm

    Slightly off topic

    A Nigerian man came into this country with 36 giant African snails ( they are the size of a fist ) in his luggage. He said he was ” going to eat them.” I don’t believe that. I suspect it’s for witchcraft purposes.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2205607/Glasgow-Airport-Man-tried-bring-36-giant-snails-Britain-Amsterdam.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213796/Shannon-Taggart-Machetes-trances-wild-dances-Fascinating-photos-shed-light-VOODOO-rituals.html

    • telemachus

      Perhaps an instant delete button

  • dalai guevara

    Yes, we need a clampdown on services rendered to people who are not entitled to this service. Does that include the former colonies, with which we have ties and perhaps a moral obligation towards?

    When we speak about inefficiencies, we need to speak about all inefficiencies: at Christmas, I took a EU national to an emergency drop-in centre in the UK’s second city. Although EU health card and private insurance were in place, the NHS was simply not geared up to deal with this sort of customer, not a single form was filled in/ a single penny changed hands – literally and virtually.

    There is so much waste in this organisation, why not run it like a company, but within public ownership – not like a taxpayer cesspit for private industries to exploit?

  • Austin Barry

    Lonely Planet might want to publish a guide to Health Tourism: best hospitals, most agreeable hospital menus, most attractive nurses etc. Properly marketed in, say, Nigeria, Gambia, Congo etc. it would be a money maker, unless of course they’re shoplifted which seems more likely.

    • telemachus

      Would that be a racist comment Austin
      You should translate it to the appropriate patois

      • Austin Barry

        Often, ‘racist’ seems to be the Left’s pejorative euphemism for ‘realist’.

  • Ron Todd

    Are the doctors in other countries that signed up to the European Human rights obliged to treat any foreigner that turns up on their door step?

    • Austin Barry

      I suppose we should be thankful that the prospect of a Jimmy Savile manque may have disabused health tourists that our hospitals are safe places in which to be ill.

  • Dogsnob

    I have been trying to highlight this issue for years on this site. Included in responses has been the old ‘where is your evidence’ cop out. Various ‘health professionals’ also, have assured me that there is no such thing as health tourism.

    Well the evidence is provided by the recent Panorama report which clearly shows that the swindling of all those who pay into the NHS, amounts to a burgeoning industry.

    Welcome to UK and the World’s only free International Health Service – paid for by mugs, accessed with ease by anyone who can find their way out of the airport and to a surgery. In fact, if your relatives living here arrange it with us, we will have an ambulance waiting on the tarmac for the plane doors to open. We will even supply an interpreter at £50/hour if you like.

    • Nicholas K

      Given that most other EU states do not have a free on demand at the point of delivery health service, you cannot pin this one on “Brussels” – it is just British metropolitan “liberal” woolly minded idiocy. Go to a hospital in Brussels and the first thing you will encounter is cash desk: having health insurance (compulsory for those working here) will only relieve you of most of the bill – everyone still pays something – and if you don’t thave insurance, then it’s very simple, full payment or no treatment.

      The cost of unpaid NHS treatment for foreigners should be deducted from the Overseas Aid budget because that it what it is, overseas aid distributed on the irrational, random basis of grants to those who happen to have the means to travel to the UK.

  • Wilhelm

    These ethnics are now just taking the piss

    • telemachus

      Mainly the black folk don’t you think Kaiser

      • Wilhelm

        Telemachus

        Well, if you say so.

  • Powder

    We hand over houses to 16 year old slappers who’ve never paid in, and give them 16 years of child benefit for every illegitimate child they throw out and a lifetime of dole cheques, housing benefit, council tax benefit, free prescriptions and free dental care. How much does that something for nothing system cost? I worked out that my niece (one of those parasites – 28 years old, four kids (first at 15), three-bed privately-rented but state-funded semi since she was 16, never worked a minute in her life) gets £1750 a month tax free from the state.

    • Anne Wotana Kaye 1

      An extreme case, metaphorically, of ‘Spare the rod and spoil the child’. I’m sure you are relieved that she is your niece and not your daughter.

      • James102

        Ms.Kaye
        You seem to be a Half Full type person.

        • Anne Wotana Kaye 1

          Sorry, but your comment is unclear. Please clarfiy. Thanks.

          • James102

            That it is better to have a niece who is a liability than a daughter.

            • Anne Wotana Kaye 1

              No mention in the posting that the niece is a liabilty, whereas a daughter is a moral and emotional responsibility.

              • James102

                She certainly is a liability to the taxpayers.

        • telemachus

          James
          Encourage her
          She is a welcome refugee from the vicar

      • Powder

        Extreme? Perfectly normal and highly prevalent in every town and city of the UK.

        I’ve got three adult children still living at home. They work hard, pay their taxes, get pennies interest on their savings and can’t afford their own homes while (or maybe so?) people like their cousin can live state-funded lives in which they contribute nothing but more mouths to feed and, eventually no doubt, another generation of state dependants.

        I don’t know what the answer is. But someone better come up with one soon before welfare hits 200 billions a year. I do know what part of the answer is: means testing all pensioner benefits.

    • telemachus

      Jesus H
      I would hate to be one of your extended family
      I bet your niece even wastes money on buying a birthday card fo her uncle

    • Justathought

      Absolutely agree with everything you say but I must congratulate her for a least having four children and you have the satisfaction of knowing that you paid taxes for her lifestyle. I am more concerned about those who arrive and have five plus darlings yet never paid a cent into the pot.

  • sceptic3

    Journalists and political commentators just do not get it; that there is nothing the Government can do to prevent these outrages. Health tourism, benefit tourism and almost everything else are beyond their control because they have passed that control to Brussels; and it is that stark fact that the media should get it’s teeth into.

    Nobody seems to understand that Brussels has the power to do to Britain what it did to Greece and Italy. They have the power to remove our government from office. So James; get onto that would you.

    • James102

      Yes but theoretical legal power and actual power are different.
      The peripheral countries such as Ireland, where the budget was discussed by Germany before being presented to the Irish parliament, Greece even Italy are treated like provinces because they can be. That is why Spain is being given so much rope.
      The UK, France and Germany remain too powerful to be fully dictated to.
      The UK must by now be considered too much of a problem to remain but there needs to be a formula that both protects the income they get from us and does not create a situation where more countries leave.

      A Fudge is required.

      • telemachus

        We have a fudge already and in many ways we get the best of both worlds
        We are free of the euro zone but trade on actually being the financial centre of Europe

        • James102

          Yes withdrawal by stealth. I think we can expect more exceptions in the next round of negotiations.
          The situation would be funny if it was not for the millions of personal tragedies involved. The more you read about the Greek and Irish situations prior to the collapse the more surreal it appears. Even now the Greeks got over cuts in public sector salaries by introducing two extra months: a 14 month year!

          • telemachus

            For once I believe Cameron wanting a new contract for us
            Sadly he will pick the trimmings for his law and order/anti immigration constituency rather than measures to benefit the economy and the city

            • James 102

              Depends if he wants to be PM and have the Conservatives as the majority party.
              He is a strange man. Osborne is said to have chosen the cabinet with no interest shown by Cameron.

              • telemachus

                A strange man indeed but I have not met an Etonian who is not
                The are trained to be apart from the rest of us

                • TomTom

                  Damian Lewis plays that role perfectly at present

        • sceptic3

          We have the worst of both worlds. Free of the Euro? why have we not devalued to boost exports?

      • sceptic3

        My first reply seems to have disappeared. However you’re forgetting the option of unconditional surrender, favoured by to many of our unsavoury leaders.

    • AnotherDaveB

      They could at least not encourage it. The Mayor of London gives out a ‘how to ‘ booklet in a variety of languages.

      http://news.migrationwatch.org.uk/2012/04/boris-advertises-foreign-access-to-the-national-health-service.html

      And free HIV treatment to foreigners is government policy.

      http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100140001/free-nhs-treatment-for-foreign-hiv-patients-no-wonder-were-out-of-cash/

      • sceptic3

        It is also now EU policy.

      • Ron Todd

        Some logic in that, we want to reduce the risk of them spreading HIV to the rest of us. Being able to remove them from the country would be a better response, but we all know Cameron hasn’t got the balls.

  • Anne Wotana Kaye 1

    This government has nothing but contempt for the British citizens liviing here. With reference to this NHS situation, I can give a typical example. A patient can not change his doctor if he/she is out of the catchment area decided upon by the powers that be. I do not like the GP practice where I live, and wish to register at a practice more sympathetic to my needs. I cannot do this. Maybe, I have found a solution. I shall pretend to be a foreigner and arrive at the GP of my choice and demand, and receive treatment.

    • telemachus

      AWK1
      I think you will find under the latest NHS rules that you are wrong

      • telemachus

        PS It is nice to see you posting on a real blog.
        Your contributions are always thoughtful and welcome

    • Gnasher

      @4c15a809acfc61d4e13ae2935cfa568a:disqus Sorry but you are wrong there .Im currently a patient at three separate hospitals in three separate counties with the full knowledge and encouragement of my local GPs practice. As far as using an off-practice surgery for essential treatment I can guarantee that doesn’t happen as found by my wife, a fully paid up member of the NHS, when working away from home. She needs regular injections…would anyone undertake to do it?, The out of hours GP Services perhaps? They would not!

      • Anne Wotana Kaye 1

        Gnasher, hospital treatment is different. Here, I cannot register with a GP practice out of my area as the management of primary care (GP surgeries) will not sanction it. If I worked, I could claim a valid reason, but as I am retired, I can’t say I travel to work there, so no luck!

      • alexsandr

        Gnasher is 100% correct on this. I have had the same issues.
        I worked away, about 1 hour each way. Nurse at my GP goes at 4. GP’s where i worked would’nt. out of hours did but moaned and said it was a favour, not normal practice. Often seeing a doctor for working people is impossible.

    • Justathought

      Anne you can move to another practice inside the catchment but doing so means that you accept that the GP may not agree to travel that extra distance. You are still able to choose to get specialist treatment at a hospital of your choice. We really have a very good NHS but opening it up to the rest of the world is not without cost.

      • Anne Wotana Kaye 1

        The problem is I do not want any other prqctice within the catchment area where I live. I’m referring to PCT GPs. I know that the choice for hospitals is freer.

  • james102

    This will just further undermine support for the NHS.

    The left need to consider the conflict between equality and diversity.
    Taxpayers might be prepared to support services for people they identify with
    but not those they have little in common with.

    This is why Abu Hamza and his family living off our taxes cause
    such resentment.

    • telemachus

      What a discriminatory and dare I say racist viewpoint.
      So we only support those we identify with.
      Believed it or not I am a white Christian
      Should I identify with a black Muslim from Wolverhampton
      Or a white Christian from Brazil
      Who should I support?

      • Dogsnob

        Y’jes live like you wanna live tele baby.

      • Daniel Maris

        Give it a rest Telemachus. You might pull a muscle with all that forced compassion.

        If you want to put up a sign at airports saying “Free Health Treatment for All From Anywhere on the Planet – Apply at the First NHS Facility You Come Across” please let us know.

        • telemachus

          I was actually picking up with James outrageous comment on equality and diversity
          Of course health has to be paid for
          We have paid according to our means in a fashion approved by our representatives in parliament
          Non Nationals without reciprocal agreements must undervcompassion have emergency treatment.
          Others should be put on a plane
          The Mail are correct to question the DoH advice which almost certainly has not been cleared by Mrs May

      • James102

        I’m a realist, there is such a thing as human nature and we are tribal animals.Wishful thinking is not a good basis for policy.

        • telemachus

          Ideals are like the stars
          We may not reach them
          But oh how we profit from their presence

          • James102

            But the problem is that multicultural societies fail and the consequences have to be dealt with by real people—shooting at the stars just wastes ammunition.

            • telemachus

              Rome was a multicultural society that was successful for centuries

              • James102

                Based on slavery and military power.

                • telemachus

                  We all learn from the mistakes of others

                • James 102

                  Unfortunately we don’t: we tend to repeat them, as we are doing with the multicultural experiment.

                • telemachus

                  Back to the topic
                  I recall the Daily Mail headline “Our NHS, Not the World Health Service” This is the latest attempt by the right wing press to whip up a panic over refugees.
                  We need to get the focus back on the benefit to our great nation of the cross fertilisation of our foreign friends

                • James102

                  Cross fertilisation is useful but that is not what we have.
                  Two young men, born or at least brought up here, have been killed in the fighting in Syria after deciding to go on Jihad. Young girls born in East London wear full burkas.Africans sacrifice young children in rituals, Somalis mutilate the genitals of young girls. This is multiculturalism.
                  The left should be careful what they wish for, once the despised values of the English have been removed who will the mullahs come for?
                  In the end all that is between the feminists and gay pride supporters in Hampstead and the mullahs are young men like the Marines about to be put on trial for not sticking strictly to the Rules of Engagement, but by then they will see no reason to intervene.

                • telemachus

                  Just what is so wrong about listening to the Mullahs
                  Islam is a religion of peace
                  We need to laud and promote the reasonable mullahs to prevent the fundamentalists getting to the disaffected that occur in every society
                  My point is that it is your very hostility which pushes them to radicalism and Jihad

                • James102

                  I suspect you are a follower of Islam so that is a perfectly logical position.
                  Islam is a proselytizing faith so naturally it will seek to change Britain into an Islamic state. The wealth of Arab nations, in particular Saudi Arabia, will be used to assist, but it is just futile and disruptive.
                  The UK is a post Christian society. It is based on rationality and science; there is no place for a medieval desert cult and talking to an invisible god.
                  We need to make the UK less welcoming to Muslims and encourage those here who cannot conform to the majority culture to leave. Islam is not a faith like that of the Jews or Sikhs who will just get on with their lives and not bother the host community it is, as I wrote above, a proselytizing one which like Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries seeks to destroy all competing belief systems and convert all humanity to its beliefs. It is the antithesis of multiculturalism which is rather ironic in the circumstances.

                • telemachus

                  James,
                  I write this before waltzing off to my local Parish Church where this week I will enjoy choral matins
                  I say this not because I have any pretensions to christian goodness, but rather as accused locally of being a habitual christian
                  Guilty as charged -It is my habit, my culture and I am comfortable with it.
                  I want the Muslims to feel the same in a spirit of multicultural reciprocity

                • http://www.coffeehousewall.co.uk/ Coffeehousewall

                  telemachus has already outed himself as a Muslim elsewhere on this site in the past. As a Muslim nothing he says can be trusted since he is allowed to lie.

                • jacky Treehorn

                  I know I’m a bit late but…..religion of peace?
                  Please remove your head from your a…
                  Pathetic troll

              • Daniel Maris

                True, Rome was successful. But it was based around a central idea and official monolingualism: loyalty to the Emperor and Latin.

                The equivalents in this country must be acceptance of Parliament as the supreme law-maker and English as our medium of communication. The problem with some communities that have come into this country is that they accept neither precept.

                Without those basics, there can be no successful multiculturalism.

                • James 102

                  Yes it was more like the USA: a single culture with different ethnic groups making it up.

                • telemachus

                  What a strange idea
                  Last time I was in New York I was struck by the multiple cultures living side by side in harmony
                  A true multicultural experience
                  We could learn a lot

                • James102

                  When I am in New York I just see Americans. Some are new Americans like the Sikh taxi drivers and the many, many Hispanics but all want to be Americans. The people going to the synagogue on Lexington or St.Patricks a couple of blocks away are American first then Jews or catholics.It is not a multicultural society it is a multiethnic and multiracial society, but a monocultural one.
                  It is also a deeply patriotic one which we should copy as it binds societies together.

                • telemachus associates

                  See the paper by Logan et alhttp://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3088897?uid=3738032&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21101264228511
                  Referring to NY & LA
                  “The suburban enclave provides an alternative to assimilation”

                • telemachus

                  The predominant post-1965 immigrant groups have established distinctive settlement areas in many American cities and suburbs. These areas are generally understood in terms of an “immigrant enclave” model in which ethnic neighborhoods in central cities serve relatively impoverished new arrivals as a potential base for eventual spatial assimilation with the white majority. This model, and the “ethnic community” model, are evaluated here. In the ethnic community model, segregated settlement can result from group preferences even when spatial assimilation is otherwise feasible. Analysis of the residential patterns of the largest immigrant groups in New York and Los Angeles shows that most ethnic neighborhoods can be interpreted as immigrant enclaves. In some cases, however, living in ethnic neighborhoods is unrelated to economic constraints, indicating a positive preference for such areas. Suburban residence does not necessarily imply living outside of ethnic neighborhoods. Indeed, for several groups the suburban enclave provides an alternative to assimilation-it is an ethnic community in a relatively high-status setting

                • TomTom

                  You must have been in Upper East Side to have avoided the truth

                • TomTom

                  The Us does not have a Single Culture – it lost that in the 1850s when the Irish invaded Puritan Boston and brought clan politics to New York – it is why the Irish control Police and Fire Service in MA, NY and why the Italians had to muscle in

                • telemachus

                  And whose fault is it that they do not adhere to our societal minimum basic norms
                  Why it is the EDL brigade driving them to erect walls to protect themselves
                  How different would it be if we embraced them

                • Daniel Maris

                  OK, Telemachus…that’s a good idea you have there. I will personally pay for you to go to Bradford and embrace a Burkha’d Muslima. Then we will see what happens. It might not be a very long sojourn.

                • telemachus

                  I have a relative who lives in Keighley where the local school has a 60%
                  Asian Origin roll. I recently went to a spots day where a few mothers were adorned in the Burqa.
                  They seemed perfectly reasonable people to me, wanting like the rest of us the best in life for their children

                • TomTom

                  Keighley is a disaster zone with gang warfare, murders and huge drug dealing problems. It also has major white girl grooming problems. You simply do not know Keighley at all.

                • TomTom

                  Rome was built on Slavery

          • TomTom

            Black Holes more like – you can see the stars but they can’t see you

          • Trofim

            “Ideals are like the stars
            We may not reach them
            But oh how we profit from their presence”

            Yes: Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tong, Pol Pot – all idealists.

      • http://twitter.com/EU_Dictatorship Sue

        So you think it’s OK for all and sundry to come across and get their free abortions etc…? I rather think that in an emergency, of course, people must get care but otherwise they should pay. Britons have to pay in Spain unless they have signed up for work. Why should we be the mugs?

        • telemachus

          See my reply to Dan
          For non emergency stuff not only should they pay but if they cannot they should be put on a plane
          Pour encourage les autres

      • Dicky14

        @Telemachus – you’re not a Christian at all, you can’t possibly be. Your ignorance and obsequiousness is plain to see. You’re a stooge, a cuckold, a disgusting individual who has no concept of what society is, a parasite, a wretch, a racist (your description of the Turkish was venal), a ignorant little man with a third rate education, a blaggard, a pseud and a pathetic, lonely little man.

        • telemachus

          I love to point out to such as yourself that having got a first at Oxford, I strive in an interactive environment to earn a crust tomfeedvmy large family and support several,of my grandchildren
          I choose to spend the odd five minutes getting at the self satisfied selfish little englanders gathered here

          • IRISHBOY

            And how would you feel if one of your large family died because there wasn’t a bed or doctor or a hospital available to them? Where do you draw the line?

            • telemachus

              Will not happen
              I have ultimate faith in the DoH
              Aneurism Bevan’s creation has shown itself up to the mark for 60+ years

              • IRISHBOY

                Aneurism indeed!!!!

              • IRISHBOY

                And I’m happy to edit your posts unacknowledged teleboy!
                Bevan of course was another big liar, but that’s for another time.

                • telemachus associates

                  As usual your post makes little sense.
                  Bevan whatever you think of him probably gave you and your family the best of starts in life
                  My older brother was born in 1947 and neither my parents or extended family could afford obstetric care
                  He is lucky to be alive
                  My mother on the other hand (God rest her soul)suffered long term damage

                • IRISHBOY

                  Whoever is at the helm of teleassoc. int., do try and keep the right hand informed of what the left is up to. When you first mentioned the self-declared liar Bevan you wrote his Christian name as Aneurism.
                  I’m sorry that your mother suffered long term damage, as I’m sorry that people are dying today in your sainted NHS every day, needlessly and callously, deliberately and with no shame ever emanating from holier than thou doctors and nurses who seem oblivious to the symptoms of dehydration, or the grotesque sight of the poor unfortunates, in their ironically called care, lying dying and crying in their own faeces. Now I’m just guessing here, but I’m sure that if anything like this was happening in a BUPA or Nuffield hospital on even a minute scale of its prevalence in the NHS, it would be plastered all over the front page of The Guardian.
                  Bevan didn’t give me the best start in life. My parents did. That’s their duty, and in my case one enacted with love and hard hard work because, although starting married life with not a penny to their name, they made sure that they never asked anyone for anything, a far cry from the unutterable selfishness of socialists, a pathology that perhaps the NHS may one day cure.
                  Oh, and I agree with the indefatigable, and in this case, overgenerous, Hexamgeezer that you are a Tit!

                  (Oh and here’s a link to another award winning story for our State Healthcare System – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9608286/Convicted-criminals-recruited-as-carers-for-elderly.html

              • TomTom

                Clearly you are clueless that is why there is £500 Million in Damages Claims pending against the Notional Health Service

          • Godwin’s Son

            Hmm. And how do you work out that “little englanders” are “self satisfied”? They have no parliament unlike the Welsh, Irish and Scots. They pay for tuition fees and prescriptions when other “Britons” don’t. They are being screwed by the EU with no say in the matter. Their borders are open and uncontrolled immigration and multi-culturalism have been imposed on them without consent. Their freedom of speech is being daily eroded. And on a conservative blog, where they might expect to commiserate with like minds they find you, serial troll, busy “getting at” them. Why? Is it hate? I thought your stinking party disapproved of that.

            You are a ****

            • telemachus

              I respect your right to views and will not abuse, although you could do with an arrow in the other eye
              As you very well know the British Empire was simply the hegemony of the English over first the Welsh, Irish and Scots and then much of the non European world
              How did England do it
              By embracing the multicultural world. And integrating the multiple immigrants coming to our shores
              With retrenchment there are a few (the little englanders) who thing the way back to greatness is drawing up the drawbridge
              They could not be more wrong
              The way back to greatness is to embrace the world

            • Justathought

              James why do you rise to the teletroll bait? Don’t give his ego the oxygen he craves as every riposte from him lowers the blog dialog for his amusement

          • Scott

            So another leftie with a privileged background and education. You call everyoné fascist that disagree with your utopian view of the world. The little engenders as you call them, are worried about this country going to the dogs. We can’t be home to everyone in the world. We are a small country with finite resources, especially since the economy was trashed by your Labour friends.

            • telemachus

              Trashed
              The longest period of growth and prosperity in 100 years
              I have called no one a fascist since Nico threatened me

              • Hexhamgeezer

                T it

              • Scott

                It was actually meant to say to racist but auto corrected to fascist. So apologies for that. But you do call people racist who don’t agree with you.

          • Hexhamgeezer

            T!t

            • telemachus associates

              Truth!
              truth

          • TomTom

            Do tell us in what subject you obtained a First and at what College. I should be highly amused

          • Baron

            telemachus, Baron hopes you have a pimp for a brother, you need someone to look up to.

      • Doppel1800

        Does one have to be religious to be sanctimonious. Just asking, one Oxford graduate to another?

        • ToryOAP

          If Jimmy Telemachus is an Oxford graduate, let alone with a first, then I am Ed Balls. The little scumbag monopolises this board and arguing with him is like arguing with his hero Saville. He is a vile labour troll and belongs in that hell we should confine all those labour traitors to.

          • TomTom

            Telemachus is Greek for “far from the battle” – or remote from reality

      • sponner

        ah, telemuchus, born out of ignorance, brought up in stupidity. Exactly what bit of James102’s comment is racist? Funnily enough, I believed it not.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        Tit

        • telemachus

          Truth is truth

      • ToryOAP

        I count 31 posts so far on this thread by you – hardly any addressing the issue of health tourism. You are mentally ill, a psychotic egotist and liar (Oxford 1st my arse). You monopolise 30% of the posts in a blog that is the opposite of your political beliefs yet never post in those blogs that are of your viewpoint. You are a paid labour troll or in need of care in the community. Either way this is the last time I will respond to you and advise all fellow posters to abstain from engaging with you again. You have turned a pleasant political magazine into a sewer and I despise you for it.

      • James R

        I hope you’ll support my wife who is a white christian from Brazil.She has visited the doctor perhaps half a dozen times in twenty years.At the moment she has a severe cough that refuses to budge.Five prescriptions later things are looking up.Cost to her £38.25.She has never been out of work.
        I hope you don’t support the Afghan & Iraqi asylum seekers who insist on being treated by one of their own i.e Muslim Male & Female at great cost to the NHS but also unfailingly get the anti-depressants they ask for at zero cost which are then sold on to others.A very profitable business concern.

      • TomTom

        No I do not believ you are a Christian…you clearly have no idea of what the Christian Community was or is supposed to be in the context of a 1st Century Orthodox Jewish Rabbi from Nazareth or of the Roman Jew Saul of Tarsus – you are a “cultural” Christian which is akin to being Apostate.

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