Coffee House

Don’t blame the whips for the EU budget revolt: the problem is higher up

31 October 2012

9:59 PM

31 October 2012

9:59 PM

What is striking about this evening’s revolt on the EU budget is that it was organised at lightning speed by the rebel camp. Mark Reckless and Mark Pritchard only tabled their amendment on Monday morning, whereas the rebellion of the 81 over the backbench motion for an EU referendum took weeks of careful planning. This time round, in just three days, the shadow whipping operation managed to stir up 53 MPs prepared to troop through the ‘yes’ lobby in favour of the call for a real-terms cut.

The whips themselves are already saying that they know the blame will land on Sir George Young’s head when they believe it wasn’t his fault. And even those who were the most enthusiastic signatories the Reckless/Pritchard amendment disagree that the whips should take the flak. Though some whips clearly went over the top – telling MPs that their rebellion could spark a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister is not the way to calm things down on a non-binding vote – the real problem lies with the leadership.


Two rebels I spoke to this evening agreed: the Prime Minister isn’t listening to the whips’ advice. Their job is to come to him and tell him what the mood is among backbenchers, and to advise him on how to respond. One MP described it as a ‘needless cock-up’, while another told me:

‘It goes to the top. It’s unfair to blame whips or the No 10 political operation. The Prime Minister doesn’t listen to advice. Today is the consequence of that fatal flaw.’

The Prime Minister could have deflated the revolt considerably had he responded immediately to the Reckless amendment on Monday by making clear his personal desire for a real-terms cut, even if he added the caveat that this was highly unlikely. Instead, he only reassured backbenchers a few hours before the debate kicked off today, by which time the shadow whips were quietly confident that the motion would certainly be worth moving to a vote. Just before the vote, Number 10 conceded that it was highly likely there would be a defeat unless something dramatic happened.

It is also significant how utterly ineffectual the offer of an audience with the Prime Minister or the Chancellor seemed to be as a key part of what little whipping strategy there was. I know of at least two Tory MPs who were not hardened rebels who, still wavering the day before the vote, were invited to meet David Cameron or George Osborne. Both turned the offer down. I understand that one of those MPs was almost affronted that this would be the first time the leadership had really spoken to them since the last revolt in the Commons. Number 10 does host ‘outreach’ drinks for backbenchers, but MPs don’t always leave those occasions in a more cheery frame of mind: apparently the Prime Minister doesn’t give the impression he particularly enjoys working the room or indeed that he enjoys listening to what his MPs have to say.

What will be worrying the whips more than anything is that this group of 53 MPs who seem to feel they owe their Prime Minister nothing is not small by any means. Having so many MPs who appear beyond rescue will panic the leadership far more than the actual amendment itself.

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Show comments
  • Barbara Stevens

    I’m glad about the 53 who went against the government, they were brave and acted in our interests. Cameron is on warning, and he knows it. As for the Labour party, we all know they think this action would embarress the PM, it probably did for a short while; for themselves perhaps they think their actions will redeem them from past mistakes? Or may be impress the nation, it’s backfired if that’s the case. However, I’m glad they did do it for it gave momentum to the rest who have tried for months to get some action on the EU. With Nick Clegg making waves, he can not possibly expect to be listened to, Cameron should exert his authority and tell him to shut up, he’s the PM not him. Running at just 7% in the polls they have the most to lose if the coalition falls. For years UKIP have been laughed at, but now the boot is on the other foot, they are knocking at the door and are being heard, loudly. They’ve got my vote.

  • John Roberts

    Cameron lost the vote because he is under God’s displeasure due to his obssession with “gay” marriage.

  • Bob Hutton

    Cameron is under God’s displeasure for his obssession with homosexual marriage. He needs to start governing in accordance with the principles of God’s infallible word.

  • Stuart Eels

    I said before the General Election that I didn’t fancy Cameron and would never vote for any party lead by him, nice to be proved so farsighted. Cameron and Clegg will lead their parties to the a nice rest in opposition!

  • james higham

    Michael, James – absolutely. There are two parties in one unfortunately – the true conservatives and … er … the others. No wonder the others could even countenance a coalition with the Lib Dems.

    It may be provocative but I’ve just written, at our place:

    True conservatives caused the trouble last night because Cameron’s lot are not conservative. Even the idea of coalition with the pathetic Lib Dems should have been anathema to them. However, the Tories have that other tradition too, unfortunately – the quisling tradition – of which Heath and Major were the chief recent exponents.

    It’s significant that when true conservatives turn on their “leadership”, it’s open and constitutes revolt. When the pink Tories do it, it’s backstabbing done in the shadows. The Lib Dems and pink Tories suit each other very well.

  • Daniel Maris

    Heard the Chancellor on Today this morning – how very depressing. He clearly loves all this marginal EU budget nonsense and all the political intrigue that goes with it. The idea that he is a chancellor with a laser like focus on this country’s economic issues is risible.

    Osborne is a dodger not a doer .

  • @PhilKean1

    Are these 53 the answer to our prayers?

    Could they save us from the nightmare prospect of having the Liberals sharing office with Labour after 2015?

    A coalition of 53 right-wing Tory MPs and Labour? Not so mad as it sounds.

    Examine the alternative. If Cameron closes the poll gap with Labour, or pulls slightly ahead, Labour won’t win an outright majority and will need the support of what’s left of the Liberals to form a Government. I can’t find the words to explain how dangerous a Liberal sword of Damocles pressuring Labour would be for the future of the British people.

    No, the 53 need to organise and elect a leader. That leader should then seek to negotiate with Labour their behalf should Labour fail to win a majority at the 2015 General Election.

    • HooksLaw

      Wonderful. We must thank you for that little insight – and for all those who do not like my words then take a good look at a grade A loony tune nut job in full flow.

      • HellforLeather

        You’re losing it — and far too often to make the impression you hope to.

        You’re not Mitchell, are you? Your rants suggest you might be.

        You’re going a long way to contaminate the Tory brand, whatever that might be these days.

  • Boudicca_Icenii

    Absolutely, the problem is higher up than the Whips. It is also higher up than Cameron – or does anyone seriously think that he isn’t being instructed by internationalist people ‘in the shadows.’
    The Bilderberg Group exists for a reason …………..

  • Kevin

    This all reads like a jolly wheeze but it will not make the history books unless we actually stop surrendering money to the kleptocrats.

  • eeore

    Focusing on technical issues of the defeat, obscures the real issue.

  • DaVeto

    DC must respect the will of the people and demand a budget cut and use the veto if necessary. Alternatively he can roll over and have his tummy tickled then come home and face the music.

  • RKing

    Perhaps the tories should offer Nigel Farrage a safe seat and then make him leader of the party or perhaps our EU negotiator.

    Now this would make them very electable at the next election and we would know where we stand on the EU.

    Dave has really shown that he is audio challenged and his “I know best” attitude just doesn’t wash anymore.

    • caress that whip

      Not a bad idea, but better to negotiate a truce in select seats, allowing UKIP to claim a few and be part of government. The LD’s are doomed, and better to open up a ready made avenue to replace them in part if not in total.

  • an ex-tory voter

    It would seem the only time DC has anything to do with his back benchers is when he needs them to vote in a particular way. Whereupon he descends from on high and condescends to spend a few minutes in their unworthy company.

    The man is a born leader and really does not deserve the treacherous, disloyal and ill informed conservative parliamentary rabble who continually try to disrupt his program, threaten the stability of the coalition and worst of all, represent the interests and wishes of those who elected them.

    • caress that whip

      Yes, Cameron doesn’t need “whips”. That’s far too inefficient for a man of his unlimited talent and limited time. What he really needs is a Stasi-like secret police, to enforce proper discipline amongst the disloyal dolts he’s lumbered with in Parliament.

  • Billi

    This will continue until the Party splits into a Mosleyite Europhile group. ( That will join the Libdems to form a right of center Pro EU Party )
    The others will form a Democratic Right Of Center group that may or may not retain the Conservative tag.

    • caress that whip

      To hell with it. Just call them Whigs and be done with it.

  • Baron

    Run it by Baron again, Isabel, Cameron doesn’t want to leave the EU, but has no personal stance on the EU? Whose stance is it, then? The personal stance of a clone of Cameron’s?

    • caress that whip

      What stance has the tosser who refers to himself in the 3rd person?

  • 2trueblue

    The problem is lack of clarity about our EU membership and the terms that we are constrained by. Cameron will not accept that the public has a view the EU, is not where he thinks we are. Ignoring the public, The LibDum lord calling us ‘headbangers’ and the media, mainly the BBC continually painting anyone who is against the EU or man made climate change all in the same basket.
    We don’t just need change at the top of government, we need good information and real reporting to enable us to have the real facts.

  • Vulture

    Cameron is finished. He cannot deliver his party behind his capitulation to the EU policy.
    A bankrupt position that is rejected now by the Tory party, the country and – Ye Gods! – the Labour party too.
    There is a simple answer to those Camerloons who argue that this vote is a triumph for Miliband: change your policy, get up off your knees, depose Dave – and reap the rewards. C’mon : you know you want to: Britain before Brussels.

    • an ex-tory voter

      The only two words I ever want to hear from David Cameron are “et tu”

    • HooksLaw

      You show you really do live in fantasy land. You are as inventive as ever in justifying your bile.

      Labour are anti EU? You believe that, go tell it to the fairies at the bottom of your garden.

  • Michael990

    No Mr Cameron, this is indeed not some f***ing sixth form debating society. Part of your party has at last stood up and tonight demonstrated some courage. Pay heed. They are elected representatives of the people. And none of this weak “well it’s the best agreement we will be able to get” attitude where you’ve given up before you’ve even started.

    • JamesdelaMare

      Michael – Quite right, only perhaps you should have added that most of the public seem to have little or no sympathy for the MPs who are the rest of the party either, after the seemingly endless greed and personal ambition which have been exposed and which they seem to prefer to mature altruistic service to the community that voted for them. It’s not just the top end, it’s the whole decadent system that needs reforming and reviving.

      • telemachus

        If Mitchell had been in the Whips office this would not have happened.
        He would have swung his bicycle chain and those who defied would have been denied advancement ever in the party
        He would then if he still smelled defeat tell vacillator Cameron to make it a vote of confidence

        • telekuka

          telemachus, you are doing a good job of ruining this site!

  • In2minds

    “the Prime Minister isn’t listening to the whips’ advice” – why
    should he? He’s not listening to the public either!

    “It is also significant how utterly ineffectual the offer of an audience
    with the Prime Minister or the Chancellor seemed to be”.
    Significant but not surprising.

  • peterbuss

    I’m surprised you fall for this nonsense Isobel. Of course the rebels will try to put it about that “us poor dears didn’t really want to rebel and act as self indulgent children but our Leader wasn’t nice to us in the playground and so we don’t feel loved!”. They acted like spoilt self indulgent children tonight.They have achieved nothing, their actions will achieve nothing except gravely damage the Govt and hand a propaganda victory to Labour.

    • itdoesntaddup

      Labour will only have a propaganda victory if they are prepared to continue to demand cuts in the EU budget – and that includes their MEPs. Otherwise, they will show themselves up as shallow.

      • HooksLaw

        Margaret Hodges comments show the true nature of labour – but so why do toity MPS give labour even the sniff of propaganda?

        Douglas Carswell has said: ‘This is not about Tory divisions or Labour hypocrisy, it’s the moment the House of Commons finally said, “Enough is enough”. Enough to the Whitehall elite and the Eurocrats. We will not put up with it any more.’
        But the idiot does not realise or does not admit that the Commons has done no such thing – all we have seen is Labour MPs voting against their beliefs purely to embarrass the govt, and dumbass Carsewll has given them the opportunity.

    • HooksLaw

      Quite agree, this woman whoever she is has shown herself to be totally dim and quite incoherent. Rebels are tainted with the smear of siding with Ed Balls – so shock horror they are self serving.

      But as we see only too readily the Coffee House is given over to loony tune nut jobs, it make the advertising hits easier to rack up the income I suppose.

      Is there a loony tune nut job here who really believes a word of what labour says on europe, the party that gave away the rebate and signed up to automatic 2% rises in the EU budget?

      • Vulture

        Hookie: Your pathetic jibes and insults ‘ loony tune nut jobs’ etc. expose not only the paucity of your vocabulary, but the bankruptcy of your position, and, btw demonstrate your own qualifications in the nut job department.
        I think that you will just have to accept that you and your ilk are a tiny minority among Conservatives, and an even tinier minority in the country at large.
        EU enthusiasm is yesterday’s tune. Most of us have long realised that the corrupt and sinister organisation is harmful to our country and its interests.
        Any Prime Minister who does not go with the Eurosceptic tide will be swept away and so will the dutiful dolts like you who support him.

        • HooksLaw

          Truth Hurts. You have no link to the reality of your position.
          You expose yourself by the idiocy of your vocabulary. Cameron would tell you its dinner time at 12 o’clock and you would call him a liar.

          My ilk want us to repatriate powers and reform the EU. My ilk recognise that being out of the EU is not without consequences and in the real world is not much different from being in and campaigning against the govt is not worth the end result of presenting the govt of the UK to a europhile labour govt.

          You are a nut job loony tune because your entire campaign (founded as it is on irrationality) if successful would give us back to labour. That stinks and as long as you persist in it I will tell you so.

    • Colonel Mustard

      The propaganda victory has been handed to Labour by Cameron who, even if he has the right policies, has shown himself singularly unable to sell them to his own party, let alone the country. This is about strong leadership – or more correctly the lack of it. And that lies with Cameron. He wanted the job. No-one said it would be easy. I realised this man has no backbone when I saw him in TV debate with Brown. Anger is no substitute for strength.

      Cameron and his crew attempt to explain themselves but too often the message is convoluted or mixed – and begins to sound like weasel words. And then there is the track record. This should be a propaganda victory for Cameron but he doesn’t understand the meaning of the word – or its importance in modern politics. And that despite coming from a PR background.

      No bile towards him here. Only bitter disappointment. I expected more as I suspect many other conservatives did. Cameron needs to recognise that and neither ignore nor scorn it.

      • HooksLaw

        The propaganda victory has been handed over by 50 thick tory backbenchers. The govt position is not convoluted or mixed – its to try to obtain a cut but to veto anything other than a freeze. Any difference is marginal compared to playing straight into Labour’s hands.

        All we have on here is a second home to xenophobic UKIP nut jobs who prop up their own self serving drivel to each other.

        • Colonel Mustard

          I disagree. I am entitled to and I do so without resorting to your level of puerile abuse.

        • Colonel Mustard

          “All we have on here is a second home to xenophobic UKIP nut jobs who prop up their own self serving drivel to each other.”

          And one might ask. What’s that to you? No-one forces you to loiter here!

          Why is suspicion or contempt of the EU xenophobic? The EU represents a largely bureaucratic, undemocratic, socialist regime not a foreign country. The supposed benefits of being roped in to its increasing federalism have never been quantified beyond an arrogant presumption.

          Methinks you protest too much.

  • Douglas Carter


    Look Isabel, without prejudice.

    Cameron elected, upon his (inappropriate) elevation to significance, to attempt to ‘park’ the matter of the EU.

    It’s come back (naturally) to break his kneecaps. His own idiotic decision to disregard the issue for partisan reasons is the underlining phenomenon to tonights defeat.

    • IsabelHardman

      Agree Douglas – huge problem for Cameron is that he has no personal stance on Europe, other than that he doesn’t want to leave the EU. He’s not ideological on Europe, and this means he wobbles all over the place on it, confusing his party.

      • MikeBrighton

        Isabel, I remember when Cameron was running for election as Tory leader. It was put about that he was “sound on Europe” ie deeply eurosceptic. On election to coalition government, it was put about that he was “the most Eurosceptic PM since Thatcher”. On his first test in Europe quelle surprise we discover he’s Eurosceptic in name only and a fully paid up member of the political class cosy pro-EU “don’t rock the boat, we need to influence and change the EU, membership is in our interest etc” consensus. No wonder his party is confused and he’s royally despised by real conservatives and most posters here..

      • HooksLaw

        Your 3 lines of remarks show how unfit you are to be a commentator.

        The tory position is quite plain. They do not want further integration in Europe, they want to repatriate powers and see this as likely when the Eurozone pushes itself into a closer union.
        Some people may disagree with the idea of not wanting to leave the EU but, linked with the points above, it is a perfectly tenable and arguable position. indeed if Cameron’s and the Tory party’s policy was to leave the EU it would open up its position to hopeless contradictions since no one who wants to leave the EU has any notion of how the UK economy would function truly outside it.

        Cameron comes up with as tough stance on the budget debate one could expect and 50 backbench MPs are so bereft of any sense of a) loyalty and b) common sense that they are happy to pollute themselves in the same lobby as a bunch of europhile hypocrites who are relishing how the incident puts them closer to getting back into power..
        To what purpose except to undermine their own party?

        • MikeBrighton

          There is the chance that those 51 backbench MPs actually represented the views of their electorate although I agree that the Labour party of europhile hypocrites is beneath contempt.

          The UK economy functioned pretty well, certainly with ups and downs until 1st January 1973 when we joined a supposed European free-trade association on economic grounds. We don’t need the EU to function as an economy it’s a complete fallacy. The train of logic that if we leave the EU millions will be cast on the dole and we will be forced into agrian subsistance farming as a nation to survive is laughable nonsense.

          No-one has ever asked me if I’m OK handing over my democracy and governance to a broadly unelected and undemocratic European bureacracy that is seeking to self-aggrandise itself into a “United States of Europe” whether I like it or not. Our political class has been weighed, measured and bought and has ridden the “European Project” handing over power and sovereignty without a scintilla of democratic approval. We are well overdue for a democratic process to give or deny that approval, a process the political class is conniving in denying to date. That is the issue in a nutshell.

          • HooksLaw

            Your notion of UK economic performance before 1973 is naive to put it politely.

            You are operating in a fantasy world. The EU is not going to go away even if we are OUT of it. the reality is we can never be totally out of its influence. There are currently 27 countries IN it and its likely to grow – you cannot stop what others want to do iof we are out and ypou ncannot predict how they would deal with us if we were OUT.
            We should aim for the situation like Norway who are IN the EU but OUT of it at the same time. But that still comes with consequences like abiding by single market rules and paying sums into the EU. The next alternative is to be in an outer rim, away fvrom the Eurozone but still IN the EU. Frankly twere is not much difference

            In fact we were better off than Norway who are in Schengen, whllst we obtained an opt out.

            The point is nut jobs like you and 50 thick tory backbenchers would hand over the UK and the determination of its position in Europe to the party that gave away our rebate.
            Meantime you persist in your inventions to shore up a position which is both untenable and self defeating.

            • MikeBrighton

              Thanks for your reply. You’ll note that I’m able to hold a reasoned discussion without resorting to the insults you cast e.g. “Nut Job”.

              What you say may be right or wrong but no-one has asked us if we want to be part of a EU super state. Just to re-interate as it’s a pretty big point NO ONE HAS ASKED US IF WE WANT TO BE PART OF AN EU STATE.

              To fisk your points:

              You are operating in a fantasy world.

              > Really, my opinion seems to accord with the majority view according to the polls.

              The EU is not going to go away even if we are OUT of it. the reality is we can never be totally out of its influence.

              > True. But that is true of the USA and China. No one is suggesting we become a state of the USA or China but the Europhiles want us to be part of an EU state

              There are currently 27 countries IN it and its likely to grow – you cannot stop what others want to do iof we are out and ypou
              ncannot predict how they would deal with us if we were OUT.

              > True, however the key EU states have a significant trading surplus with us so they would have to accomodate us. Are you seriously suggesting that we can’t leave due to uncertaintly as to how it would be dealt with? That’s a process point not a point of priciple. We should settle the principles first i.e. in or out and then the process points can be resolved as they are very secondary.

              We should aim for the situation like Norway who are IN the EU but OUT of it at the same time. But that still comes with consequences like abiding by single market rules and paying sums into the EU.

              > I prefer the analogy of Switzerland over Norway. But both show how a state can be successful in Europe outside the EU. Let’s however get some facts straight. The EU is a customs union. The best alternative for the UK is to leave the customs union but be part of the EFTA. “In 2011, non-EU markets accounted for 57 per cent of our exports; the equivalent figure for Belgium was 22 per cent. The EU’s Common External Tariff averages between five and nine per cent – higher than Britain hadin the 1920s.”

              “Switzerland applies some single market measures as a result of its
              bilateral free trade accords with the EU. It does so as a sovereign
              country, through domestic legislation, rather than through the direct
              applicability which pertains on EU territory. But the percentage is
              lower than in Norway, and immensely lower than Britain. Switzerland has implemented fewer than 2,000 single market directives since 1992; the United Kingdom more than 30,000.

              To put it another way, although Swiss exporters must meet EU
              standards when selling to the EU – just as they must meet Japanese
              standards when selling to Japan – they are not usually obliged to apply those rules to their domestic sales. In consequence, Switzerland enjoys a competitive advantage with no depreciation of its exports to the EU. In 2011, Switzerland’s sales to the EU were, in per capita terms, four-and-a-half times as much as Britain’s.”
              Source (Dan Hanna)
              The next alternative is to be in an outer rim, away fvrom the Eurozone but still IN the EU. Frankly twere is not much difference
              > I want to be out of the EU. I agree that there is not much difference being at the centre or the rim. I want to leave the EU and remain in EFTA

              In fact we were better off than Norway who are in Schengen, whllst we obtained an opt out.
              > No, Norway does not have to apply the 30,000 single market rules they we have had to since 1992 (see above)

              The point is nut jobs like you and 50 thick tory backbenchers would
              hand over the UK and the determination of its position in Europe to the party that gave away our rebate.
              > OK, insults aside but practically how is EU policy different under Cameron that it was under Brown or would be under MIlliband. Not a lot I suggest to you.

              Meantime you persist in your inventions to shore up a position which is both untenable and self defeating.
              > lol my inventions where? In what way is being an independant sovereign nation untenable or self-defeating? We were until 1973 and can easily be again.

          • George_Arseborne

            MikeBrighton . Being Europhile does not necessarily means supporting all proposals tabled in. So what is hypocritic in Labour stance on cutting the EU budget? Take note we are in 2012 not in 2005. I totally agree with Ed Milliband and Labour that when the country is facing massive cut, EU has to take some slash in its budget. So stop that rubbish of blame games. We are looking forward not backward as you and Cameron will always do. I am glad Labour is taking such a radical move in
            reforming EU while staying within. Tories on the contrary are confuse and UK has no power in EU.

            stay withi

            • MikeBrighton

              Laughable. Please tell me which party gave away more than half our our EU rebate in return for Blair not being embarrased at an EU summit meeting, which party gave away our sovereignty at each turn pretending to resist the EU at home but saying “yes please” in Europe; the Labour Party.
              The most ironic point is that the Tories are apparently cutting “too far and too fast” deepening the recession according that proven economic guru with an excellent track record in office (note the irony) Ed Balls, however it is suppoting a cut in spending in Europe!!
              Face facts the Labour party are just a bunch of opportunistic Eurpohile hypocrites, in office they would cuddle up to the EU

        • Mirtha Tidville

          Perhaps Hooky, like most of us on here, they cant stand Cameron…and apart from you, who can blame them??

          • HooksLaw

            Good luck to you if you don’t like Cameron, I prefer him to Miliband or Balls or indeed the absurd Farage.

            • MikeBrighton

              In what actual way is Cameron different in practice that Milliband would be as PM. I’m struggling to see any material difference. Please point to some distincy policy differences.

        • HellforLeather

          I would suggest that responses to your post, and the responses to that of Isabel, show quite a number of readers here reckon you are the one considered unfit to be commentator.

          Don’t know whether you operate from No: 10, but you do come across as the Tory equivalent of Telemachus.

  • Heartless etc.,

    Higher Up????

    It’s at the very top, pinnacle, peak, summit, apex, high point – of the now wretched flailing Tory (sic) Partee

  • telemachus

    A Kent MP has apologised for being drunk in the House of Commons and missing a
    vote on the Budget.

    Mark Reckless said he did not feel it was appropriate to take part in the
    vote in the early hours of Wednesday because of the amount he had drunk.

    The Conservative MP for Rochester and Strood told BBC Radio Kent: “I made a
    mistake. I’m really sorry about it.”
    At least he was sorry about that

    • HooksLaw

      You are joking right? The big brain behind this vote was too drunk to take part?
      Keep cheerful then because on that showing we are clearly heading for a return of a labour govt and a Balls chancellorship, and it won’t be Cameron’s fault.

      • Colonel Mustard

        I’m afraid it will. The Conservative Party is not a disciplined service where rank can carry some of the burden. Cameron has to lead by force of personality and inspiration alone. He doesn’t.

        • HooksLaw

          You are absurd. Totally irrational.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Sadly it is not I who is absurd or irrational. You should moderate your intolerance and anger with those who disagree with you. By being rude and obnoxious you merely alienate them further from your cause.

    • telekuka

      Fifty shades of red, dearie!

  • dalai guevara

    the coalition? what coalition?

    wind farms
    eu membership
    banking regulation

    when do you want me to stop?

    • Robert_Eve