Brighton abolishes gender

28 October 2012

7:51 PM

28 October 2012

7:51 PM

Yet more exciting news from my favourite city, Brighton. Maybe I should do a weekly Brighton update. Or maybe we should just leave them alone and ignore them; it is not a bad thing to have a large proportion of Britain’s most irritating people corralled in one ghastly laager. I don’t mean the poftahs, by the way. I mean the rest of them.

Anyway, the local council is planning to abolish the titles Mr and Mrs. This is because Brighton, apparently, has a large number of residents who for one reason or another are unable to choose which one of the two they are. They sit there, pen in hand, quite stumped. The proposal is for all official documentation to be addressed to “Mx”. But why stick with the reactionary, fascistic, patriarchal, M? Surely they should get rid of that as well? A local transgender activist, Steph Scott, was delighted by the move. ‘Being called Mr or Mrs forces me to choose between genders,’ Mx Scott lamented, ‘It assumes people live in binary world.’ Indeed. Whereas, in fact, you live in Brighton, a different kettle of fish altogether.

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Show comments
  • rndtechnologies786

    Nice think.

  • Jane Fae
  • lostinwonder

    yeah, except here’s my problem – I really AM stumped when faced with the choice between ‘Mr’ or ‘Miss’ – because I really am NOT either male or female. We do exist, you know. We are not a myth. I’m really happy for all of you who are born either male or female and are happy that way. Please feel free to carry on using whatever titles for yourself that you like. Just stop demanding that I do the same because I CANT, you idiots! Any more than a deaf person can make themselves hear just because it would make your life easier if they did. All I ask is that I stop getting forms returned as ‘invalid’ just because I haven’t ticked ‘male’ (which would be a lie) or ‘female’ (which would be a lie)

  • Ed

    Please note – this article is extremely misleading – the council is not planning to scrap the use of mr and mrs on forms, but is considering adding in an extra option for people who feel neither fit them. It is considering more choices, not less. And it hasnt been decided, it’s just being considered.
    Scrapping them entirely would be ridiculous and unfair, but no one has suggested that.

  • Guest

    Please note – this article is extremely misleading – the council is not planning to scrap the use of mr and mrs on forms, but is considering adding in an extra option for people who feel neither fit them. It is considering more choices, not less. And it hasnt been decided, it’s just being considered.
    Scrapping them entirely would be ridiculous and unfair, but no one has suggested that.

  • Mx Tyler Nottingham

    My goodness there is a lot of ignorance here. You could benefit from this video – your journalism is horrid reactionary daily mail trash by the way. Rather than the well researched, informative and honest article you should be aiming for

  • Mx Leonard UoB LGBT Officer

    One, the council is not getting rid of ‘Mr’ and ‘Mrs’ titles.
    Two, they are giving people who do not feel comfortable identifying their gender either in public or in general.
    Three, why on earth is it any concern of yours how other people identify?
    Four, Rod Liddle has a lot to answer for in this transphobic article.

  • StephanieJCW

    Silly. Although why not just let people opt out of using a title if they prefer? I use ‘Ms’ but I actually prefer people just use my given name.
    Allowing a choice between Ms, Mr, Miss, Dr, ‘None’, ‘Father’ just makes things easier without removing the use of titles from those who actually like them. Like my nan.

    • Jane Fae

      from research i’ve been doing over the last couple of years into issues such as identity, name, name change, and now title, it strikes me that Lidl has just scored an own goal.

      Banks and BUilding Societies are already changing their practice to allow for Mx – so its coming. And it goes way beyond the trans or gender queer communities.

      Because just as many women don’t really wish to disclose marital status – and so opt for Ms – there are a fair few who would simply rather not own up to gender at all, and would happily opt for Mx in a world where that title could also include those who identify as male and those who identify as neither male nor female.

  • Jane Fae

    Nice blog – shame about the lack of journalism….

    Brighton are NOT planning to abolish Mr or Mrs. Nor are they proposing any such thing. How do i know? I’m a journo who asked those questions directly of the council last week and got a very definite answer in reply.

    What happened is that they surveyed the trans population and identified areas of concern. Major concerns…like violence, lack of police protection, discrimination at work and in housing. You know: the stuff that politically correct types like to go on about.

    And oh, yes: they also mentioned this difficulty that a portion of the community has with online forms where title is required and the set of options available is limited. Why not make title optional? Why not add – as various financial institutions are already doing or thinking of doing – the “Mx” option.

    Not just trans types like that solution: a fair few women do, too.

    Anyway, they identified a problem and were planning to come up with some suggested solutions.

    Why the national press would decide that the obvious solution would be to BAN some titles is beyond me…unless aforementioned press is either mischievous or thick.

    So the Argus told Tory councillor Dawn Barnett these things were being planned…at which she gave them a neat soundbite.

    The nationals quoted Green Deputy leader out of context.

    And no-one much seems to have spoken to the council or gotten an official view from the Greens.

    I guess that’s so much more exciting than dealing with what is actually (not) being proposed.


    • StephanieJCW

      It’s Liddle. Really we should expect nothing more. And in fairness he doesn’t pretend to be a journalist.

      • Jane Fae

        Liddle? Oh, i thought he was called Lidl… though given that he isn’t bothered about the niceties of using titles politely, i guess he won’t mind either way.


    • Mx Leonard UoB LGBT Officer

      Again, Jane is right.

    • Eddie

      “Why not add – as various financial institutions are already doing or thinking of doing – the “Mx” option”
      Name them. I can see no company using such a confusing and silly title.
      And anyway, when trans people change sex, they fight to have themselves recognised as their new sex on their passport. So is it not very odd that they they want to reject their newfound Mr or Miss title?
      Nice to see the council wasting so much money though. Loads of its staff achieve nothing and should be sacked – won;t happen of course, so the people on Brighton will still suffer poor service.

  • Lara

    Good on the council for producing some slightly less irritating paperwork or whatever it’s all about. Snarky little article, at least it doesn’t bang on about it for aaaaages like when somebody’s pretending somebody has banned paperclips or something.

  • DougS

    Come on Rob, you’re making it up.


    • Jane Fae

      Yep…or rather he’s believeing EVERYTHING he reads in the press…. 🙂


  • Karl Naylor

    There is almost nothing these days so wacky, cretinous or plain stupid that will not be tried somewhere in England . Haven’t these people got anything else to do or to think about ?

  • William Reid Boyd

    Just to mention, the only Old Brightonian (i.e. alumnus of Brighton’s obligatory south coast not very good minor public school) that any one can realistically hope to have heard of is Edward Carpenter, who campaigned for homosexual (as woofters were called in those days) equality.

    Apart from Walter Ledermann of course, whom forum participants the rank of Two Plancks below will recognise as a noted group theorist and whose text book on the subject was the only one I could ever fathom to any depth.

    No idea if he was one as well.

  • Mr Grumpy

    Summary expulsion from the Green Party and, er, genderqueering for anyone who objects, no doubt. It was only a matter of time after “gender” started creeping into our vocabulary in place of “sex” – cf. your headline. If it’s all social construction and nothing to do with genitalia there can be one gender or there can be a hiundred.

  • Shakassoc

    It’s similar to declaring a town or city a nuclear-free zone. The declaration does nothing to erect an invisible, radiation-proof barrier around the boundaries of the place. It is nothing more than a pose; and where are there more poseurs than Brighton?

    • Jane Fae

      Its a “pose” to allow those who feel excluded by an online form that REQUIRES them to select from a list of titles that they don’t identify to be allowed an additional option.

      Tbh, it sounds like common courtesy to me.

  • runcorn

    In my educational place of work the chairman or woman is called the chair. And the mother tongue room is the mother tongue room. So sensible. So fair. To women.

  • Baron

    why not ‘comrade’, it’s well tested, easily identifiable, gender-less, global and would fit with the destination we’ve been heading for since the war

    (may get there soons/if the Brighton loons/ain’t kicked out before the next full moons …… Fergus Pickering, eat your heart out)

  • Andy Gill

    The picture shows a man riding a gentleman’s bike and a woman riding a lady’s bike. For God’s sake don’t tell Mx Scott. It will have a fit

  • Eddie

    Hilarious! Look what happens when the Green party have any influence – endless political correctness, self-righteous smuggery and silly faffing about with nonsense instead of tackling real issues – such as, the struggle faced by many people in Brighton stuck in dead-end low-paid jobs, with rising rents and property unaffordable because of all the hypocritical twats who have moved down from London to be so cool and trendy, a world recession, unemployments, drugs and alcohol issues in the town etc.

    I lived for three years in Brighton. The class structure there reminded me of the 18th century or earlier, with pompadoured, penis-pierced queens and fag hags from London, all enjoying their superior lives by the sea, talking liberal non-conformity whilst living lives which exploit the low paid and oppressed who have not got a job for life in London paying a 6 figure salary or vast property wealth. The desperate quest Brighton people have to be cool and ‘alternative’ wears very thin when one sees it day in day out.

    Brighton was nicer is the part. I got well and truly sick of its smugness when I lived there. But really I am not surprised at this nonsense. Just like th bad old days of loonie lefties when they called everyone ‘comrade’ or ‘brothers and sisters’.

    And utterly silly to go out of step with the rest of the UK and the English-speaking world anyway, which will cost yet more public money and no doubt need an equality officer to monitor it all like Iran’s vice and virtue police.

    I have always though women who get het up about being called Mrs or Miss to be the most sanctimonious twerps anyway. Just called all men Mr and all women Miss unless they tell you otherwise. In France/Spain/Italy where such things are used in everyday conversation, it’s much more of a minefield!

    • Eddie

      “Brighton was nicer IN the PAST” I mean…


      • TarquinFauntleroy

        You could use the edit function

    • StephanieJCW

      I have always thought men who get het up by women who prefer not to be called Miss/Mrs to be the most sanctimonious twerps anyway.

      Does it really matter so much to you to ensure you use a woman’s marital status when you address her? I don’t understand how anybody would take issue with a woman preferring to use ‘Ms’!

      • Eddie

        I do not get ‘het up’ at all – I just think it’s ABSURD and I am responding to an article about it, as you are.
        I fail to see why women like you get so het up about it! Why not just accept that the tradition is Miss and Mrs (as it is all over Europe) and the silly-sounding Mzzzzzzzz will make you look a prat as soon as you say it.
        It’s just like all these women who say ‘I’m keeping my own name after marriage’. Their name? Nope – their father’s father’s father’s father’s name actually.
        Why make such a big issue out of it and get all het up and hysterical? Calm down, dear! Haven’t you got better things to worry about than to get obsessed about the title the council uses when it sends you its sanctimonious leaftlets translated into 14 languages?

        • Sarah

          Believe me Eddie, you don’t need to say ‘Ms’ to look like a prat. So why don’t you add it to your repertoire? Obviously I’m joking, when would you ever have cause to say Ms or Miss or Mrs to anyone? When you do ever talk to women (which is only on here) you seem to get by perfectly adequately with bint, love and dear.

          But I’m encouraged by your revelation that you do have some kind of rudimentary self-consciousness. Keep practising.

          • StephanieJCW


          • Eddie

            If I ever write to women on business I tend to use their full name and no title; ditto for men. It’s easier – because although most women are reasonable creatures who just don’t care if they are addressed as Miss and don’t get all het up and hysterical about it, some do, and I wouldn’t want to lose business from anyone, even mental nutters!
            You Sarah I would not call Mzzzz – and women who use that ARE prats and are seen as prats by all who hear their insistence on that ugly feminist creation.
            I’d address a letter to you thus: Psycho Sarah.
            Accuracy is best, in your case.

        • StephanieJCW

          The article isn’t about the use of ‘Ms’. And the use of ‘Ms’ doesn’t make anyone look a prat. What makes people look prattish is the objection to the use of a title on rather archaic grounds of ‘tradition’. What also makes people look absurd becoming rather patronising and becoming all het up about people who simply prefer to use a term which is the fair equivalent of ‘Mr’.

          I don’t get het up when people mistakenly refer to me as ‘Miss/Mrs’, I just correct them. Same as I would correct someone who called me ‘Mary’ when that is not my name. I think the tone of your response is more indicative of ‘hysteria’ to be honest.

          And as for surnames you are quite wrong. I don’t have my father’s surname. I have my own surname. At birth I had not a name, so it was necessary to give me one. And it happens to be the one my father also uses. As I now have a name, it would seem, to use your term, ‘absurd’ to go through the rigmarole of changing it, just because I happen to be married. There are no benefits at the end of the hassle of conducting the name change so I see no need to bother with it. But I must concur with Sarah, it’s doubtful you have much use of ‘Ms/Miss/Mrs’ as it’s doubtful you ever communicate with women in real life. And when you do I doubt you’d ever do something as respectful as use a title…

          • Eddie

            Using the ugly fake title Ms – proounced Mzzzzzz – does, I can assure you, make you look a prat to most who hear it. Ms is NOT the equivalent of Mr – it is a fake made-up term that most women do not use and would be embarrased to use too.

            The people who call you Miss and then find you correcting them by insisting on Ms (or Mzzzzzzzzz as it’s pronounced) will think you are a real pratt, for sure.

            Your surname is your father’s name and his before him and so on. Jeez – have you never heard of a patronymic? If you want to be a REAL feminist then you should, like some sisters who really think such things are important to prop up their own fragile sense of identity, create a new name: Power or Pink or just have no surname at all (like some radical feminiastas).

            But your surname is your father’s name, not yours. So the argument feminists make about ‘not taking a man’s name’ on marriage is false and inaccurate.

            Some cultures have matronymic surnames too – or both, like in Spain.

            If you agree with Sarah you really are an idiot – probably one who never meets men and has never had a successful relationship with them. And you’re probably a child abuser and racist too. Oh whoops – I was ‘doing a Sarah’ there.

            Very odd though that you think you know ANYTHING about me from my posts on here – whether I am married, how many friends (male or female) I have – you must be psychic! Or otherwise a hysterical thick bitch of a woman who does not have the intelligence to make a rational argument without doing what women tend to do – attempting to bully men by accusing them of being paedos, rapists, wimps, abnormal men. No wonder some men annihilate their wives, listening to you and your soulmate Sarah! Get a room, Muffy!

            Perhaps you are Sarah could be married? Then you could use the surname ‘Psyhotic-Bint’ and use the title Mzzzzzztaken in everything!

            I truly pity your husband by the way. Was he conscious at the wedding? Or blind perhaps?

            • Helen


              • Jane Fae

                mmmm…i thought there was SOME rationality to it…but then i read on.

                Beyond redemption, really. 🙂

            • StephanieJCW

              The manner in which you speak of an to women on here makes it very clear that you can’t possibly have many healthy relationships with them in the real world.

              But that is by the by . You are wrong on the use of ‘Ms’ and on women choosing not to change their surnames upon marriage. I truly don’t see why anybody could possibly get hey up by a woman maintaining her surname of preferring not to disclose her marital status. Although it is generational. Eddie is quite a bit older and I know in the past those Eddie’s attitudes towards women were far more common than they are now.

            • StephanieJCW

              Just to add I don’t think any feminist chooses not to change her name due to not wishing to take “a man’s name”. But not to take her husband’s name. And I have yet to hear a good argument for one dropping one’s own surname on marriage and acquiring another.

            • Mx Leonard UoB LGBT Officer

              Why on earth is it ok for you not to disclose your marital status but women should?

              Also, how is being sexist yet powerless working out for you?

              • Eddie

                Silly argument. It is the way things are from tradition. Similarly, the word WOMAN comes from the Anglo-saxon Wyf-man – so do you want to eraze that word from history now and invent another silly-sounding one (as silly as Mzzzzz).
                Most women and gay people would disagree with you obsessive feminist pity party obsessions, you know.
                Most women are perfectly happy with Miss and Mrs and most I know use those terms. Ergo, using Mzzzzz 1) sound ridicuolous; 2) brands you as a feminist hardliner.
                By your definition, everyone who disagrees with you and does not use Ms is a sexist. Errrr – buy a dictionary eh. love?
                And you have no idea how much power I do or do not have.
                Stick to girly hugs with your sisters in the LGBT students union eh? My gay friends tell me that they hated angry butch lesbian bullies like you at their university LGB socities. Easy to see why really…

              • StephanieJCW

                I am waiting for a response to this but he is steadfastly avoiding the question.

                • StephanieJCW

                  And lots of things which were ‘traditional’ are no more. ‘Tradition’ alone really isn’t a justification for why woman must disclose their marital status when men don’t have to.

        • Jane Fae

          Absurd to have the simple common courtesy of respecting how some women wish to be addressed? Yeah. That’s about the measure of it.

          And peculiar, too, to find blokes feeling so threatened by the idea that people might not wish to fit inside such neat pre-packaged titles.

          Basically, requiring people to adhere to a fixed menu of options on a form is problematic. That’s the issue that was raised. No more: no proposals to ban anything…and the obvious solution, clearly beyond the wit of @eddie to work out, is to make titling on such forms optional.

          As for the “het up” thing…i also wonder how long it would take for guys like @eddie to get all het up and “emotional” if they were forced to chose between Miss, Mrs or Miss on forms from which the gender they believed to be theirs (Mr) had been removed? Bet they’d be whining straight away!

          • StephanieJCW

            He has no common courtesy. As he makes quite clear. And while HE may find ‘Ms’ prattish for his own personal reasons most (sensible) People really don’t care. I have met a grand total of one person in my life who didn’t like the term. Most people just, rightly, see it as the feminne version of ‘Mr’. It’s like calling someone by the wrong first name and then labelling them a prat when they object!

            Although why we have THREE terms for women is beyond me!

            If men only need one I don’t see why women need more!

            • Eddie

              And this from Stephanie who calls anyone who thinks using Ms is silly is a ‘sanctimimonious twerp’.

              But then, angry feminists are not known for their courtesy or their consistency.

              Ms is NOT the feminine version of Mr – it is a silly feminist word invented by and for the minority of women who think it matters and want to use it.

              And the pronunciation sounds SO STUPID:


              As silly as can be!

              YOu are just aping American feminist manhaters in this anyway; women in France, Italy, Spain and many other countries just do not have a problem using Madame of Mademoiselle.

              Ultimately, it is a vain and silly feminist demand that everyone should use the newly-invented term ‘Ms’. It is also as doomed to failure as the French habit of trying to make French people use French words instead of the English ones they have naturally adopted. Language and people just do not work like that!

              • StephanieJCW

                “And this from Stephanie who calls anyone who thinks using Ms is silly is a ‘sanctimimonious twerp’.”

                A) I never once said that
                B) Thinking ‘Ms’ is silly is the same as thinking a man using ‘Mr’ is silly. I wouldn’t find such a person a sanctimonious twerp (unless they expressed themselves in the ridiculous manner in which you are doing and became as het up as you have about the title others use for themselves), I would just think they were rather odd.
                C) Strawman alert – I don’t think anyone on here as claimed once that everybody should use ‘Ms’. Quite the opposite, I have called for respect given to the terms people choose to use and have stated that as ‘Ms’ is just the female equivalent of ‘Mr’ I see no reason as to why somebody should find it silly. And you saying it isn’t the feminine version of ‘Mr’ doesn’t make it true. It is. ‘Miss/Mrs’ are not as they carry an indicator of marital status that is absent form the term ‘Mr’. Can you please explain why it is so important for you for woman to make clear whether they are married or not?

                As for your reference to France you are actually rather mistaken. The split between Madame/Mademoiselle fades with age and an older woman, irrespective of marital status, is rarely referred to as ‘Mademoiselle’.

                Although that’s by the by. There is no reason why English speakers should be obliged to adopt the customs of France, Spain, Italy etc.

                And Ms is very much established. Sorry to disappoint but it really isn’t ‘doomed to failure’. And I genuinely don’t see why you are so het up by the use of the term. You have yet to offer one sensible reason for why the term so offends you.

                • joel

                  I guess i am one of those odd people that thinks that it does not matter what you are called unless you are not happy with it. And the power to change what you are called resides in you. However, I hate the arguments, never knowing if the response to ms. will be a charge of bitter emotion or the pleased expression of the respected as people do tend to have varied resposes to it’s use. (as we can see above and below!). I have to enquire what title people use many times a day as part of work, and very few seem to care much. The need to belong to something, the tribal instinct, is very compelling and i guess that different people need different ‘boxes’.

          • Mx Leonard UoB LGBT Officer


          • Eddie

            Not the point at all! So your opinion is that women can choose and confuse an issue if they want – but men can’t choose anything! That is a funny kind of equality!
            Really, most women reject Ms – I know this from looking at thousands of CVs. It may be what you want to be called, but you have to accept that most women disagree with you.
            Miss and Mrs is fine for most women.
            You are really making such a big deal out of a non-issue.

          • Eddie

            Jane – it is NOTHING to do with any male feeling threatened by the term Ms. Do you seriously think any man anywhere does? No doubt some feminist whinger has a theory that all men are trying to oppress women regarding this – but most men just do not care! But I have met women who deliberately and VERY rudely make a big issue about their title – no doubt because they are insecure and feel threatened.
            I have a similay experience: people ofteh misspell and mispronounce my surname. Now, I could be like these women and make a big deal of it and get hysterical, snapping back the correct spelling and pronunciation, but 1) it really does not matter much if someone mispronounces or mispells my name if not on an official documents and 2) It is good manners not to be rude and demanding of people making an understandable error.
            I do wish women who make scenes because some poor bloke called them Miss and not Mzzzzz would realise how utterly ridiculous and pathetic they appear to everyone around them!
            This tactic – a deliberate attempt to make men uncomfortable and correct them like a nanny – is ofetn done by insecure women. Women who are secure in themselves, confident and have enough manners to be polite to other people, do not.

            • StephanieJCW

              “but most men just do not care!”

              Well you are obviously not one of those who ‘do not care’ the way you get so het up about a woman choosing neither ‘Miss’ or ‘Mrs’ but a perfectly acceptable third option ‘Ms’ which, of the three available is the only equivalent of ‘Mr’.

      • EJ

        Lots of mewling from the girls on this one! Us guys just clearly don’t get that now is the era of the “strong, confident woman”!

        The average British woman is anything but confident; she’s a neurotic wreck, one missed therapy session from committing suicide. She gulps down booze like water, guzzles food like a starving urchin, she spends hours a week watching mindless TV shows that validate all the bad decisions she makes, she has meaningless sex with men she can’t stand sober to fill the widening
        hole in her soul, and she derives her self-worth from her paper-pushing job.

        As our society crumbles under the weight of its own stupidity, it won’t be ladies riding to our rescue. It won’t be ladies mewling about their “rights” or how they expect to be addressed that will save us. It will be men, men of courage and conviction.

  • WetherspoonThree

    Look we tried it and it failed. But Caroline Lucas is not Pol Pot.

  • Sean

    I agree with Steph, it shouldn’t have to choose.

  • Jonathan Hill

    Are you also saying we should us hix for his? Not his town, but hix town. Is that it?

    • retundario

      you are actually meant to use ‘hox’ as in ‘this is hox town’. This makes sense if you think about it because ‘hix’ is too like ‘his’, while ‘hex’ is also oppressive for the same reason. ‘Hx’ cannot be pronounced. In this context, ‘i’ and ‘e’ are not gender-neutral, so ‘o’ (or ‘u’ or ‘a’) is preferred.

      • Jonathan Hill

        And there is always the danger of too many x’s suggesting some sort of profanity.

  • Tim

    I work in Brighton. I think those nobs in the concil might hav better things to worry about than this.

    Nah. They don’t…

    Vote green, get idiots.

  • Simone

    I’d like to suggest Mr & Mrs/Miss as an alternative to the Mx of transgender prejudice. What about those of us who want to choose between genders?

    Damn Brighton Council Fascists.

    • Lara

      Yes you can reverse anything and it still works! X

    • StephanieJCW

      But I don’t use Mrs/Miss. Can I have ‘Mr’?

      • Eddie

        How about we get rid of Miss and Mrs, and replace them with the universal ‘Muff’?

        So, Muff Thatcher, Muff Harriet Harman, Muff Joanna Lumley.

        Mr and Mrs could be renamed Mr & Muff

        We could then have a mega-Stalinist revision of old films like Muff Miniver, Muff Doubtfire, Muff Brown.
        No-one would ever then know which women were married and which were not: all those with muffs would use the title Muff, which would be neat nominal determinism really.

        See – a bit of creative thinking and we can solve the problems of the world and make the het up diversity gestapo dahn Brighton council calm down and chill yeah?

        • Btn

          The purpose of “Ms” is so that women need not reveal their marital status you dolt.

          • Eddie

            And if they all called themselves Muff instead of Mrs, Miss and Ms then the question would be buried forever!
            Everyone would be happy, you dolt, because no one would have to decide which title to use!
            ‘Muff’ is perfect!
            The whole debate ie tiresome and boring – though feminists love to focus on irrelevancies instead of hard stuff l;ike poor women become servants to rich women again (whose success and easy home lives are predicated on the underpaid misery of working class women and men)
            I do actually remember a time when I received letters addressed to ‘Master’ and not Mr when I were a nipper – only off one family member though.

            • Whiskybreath

              ‘Mug’ would be a better term. Only the docile (and confused) would allow such an offensive piece of social engineering by such a band of clowns.

            • StephanieJCW

              “And if they all called themselves Muff instead of Mrs, Miss and Ms then the question would be buried forever! ”

              You’ve given up trying to make sense. That’s an argument for dropping ‘Miss/Mrs’. ‘Ms’ already does the job of concealing marital status.

        • StephanieJCW

          Nah I don’t like Muff. But if you like it I guess they could consider adding it so you can use it.

          • Eddie

            But Stephanie, Muff can only be used by them what has one innit! (Though Sarah believes strongly that women don’t have vaginas… Ask her…)

            But tell me: why do most women not use Ms? Maybe because it sounds so stupid and silly: Mzzzzzzzzzzz. Maybe because it is a silly invention of bra-burning 1970s feminism (most women, 5 out of 6, do not self-identify as feminists).

            You’re on a losing wicket with Mzzzzz. Using it says you’re a bit stuck up and obsessive about such things. It is a pipedream to think it will ever be popular, well-liked or standard. If it sounded better maybe. But it sounds SO STUPID. Mzzzzzzzzzzz.

            The French seem to do OK with their Madame and Madamoiselle – but then the French have never adopted the angry manhating feminism that Brit feminasties copied from their American sisters.

          • Eddie

            ‘Muff Stephanie’ sounds OK to me!

            Personally, I always use my initials only and no title when I can. Why? Because I know how ‘positive action’ works and how pc bureaucrats will discriminate against men. In certain fields (the BBC, publishing, broadcasting, councils) it is an advantage of a man to use initials only.

            Of course, when one applies for jobs one has to reveal one’s gender and also one’s race is obvious – at interview or before – and I have lost jobs to the most 4th rate ethnics and women in the past for these sexist racist reasons.

            I know that in certain jobs they make 2 piles of CVs – one for women and one for men and then shortlist 3 CVs from each, even if there are 50 CVs from men and 5 from women: this is ‘equality’ apparently (yeah right – like trips to concentration camps were holidays in the east). This sexism is happening every day at our bloated politically correct state institutions – funded by the taxes of those hardworking people who actually do some proper work from time to time.

            But this benefited me in the end – because I left working for others and now work for myself, which is harder work, probably less money (if one factors in the job security and massive tax[ayer-funded pension plans of the mediocrities who work for the state), but oh so satisfying.

            I even had the joyful experienced of rejecting one of my former managers for a position here (albeit a freelance one) – I of course strung her along for weeks just so she’d waste a great deal of time and money first. Hee hee hee!

  • Thick as two Plancks

    We don’t live in a binary world: we live in a complex world of real and imaginary parts.

    • hexton

      The surd and the absurd

    • William Reid Boyd

      It’s more cayley than that two Plancks, we don’t even associate any longer.

    • Eddie

      In fact, biologically, we do live in a binary world – which is why, biologically speaking, and because of DNA cell level biology, there are two sexes. There cannot be three. Read Steve Jones or others. That is quite complex too but worth understanding.

      Of course, when one comes to gender theory and sociology, then one comes to a lot of coming all over the place really. If that’s your bag, then fine. But the biological facts are there in our DNA and single cell zygotic process.

      Why all the fuss anyway? In the UK we shun formality these days and rarely use Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms etc, and even the bank writes to people using their first names: eg ‘Dear Wayne, We have noticed that your overdraft has exceed its limit and your mortgage is in arrears. Therefore, we have no option but to evict you, make you homeless, ensure your wife leaves you and you’ll never see your kids again. Sorry about all that an ting. Hugs and kisses xxx. Ms Javina Swizz at the bank of broken dreams…’

      • Baron

        Would it be Wayne Rooney, you be talking about, Eddie?

      • Taylor

        Actually, there aren’t two sexes. 1 in every 100 babies has some kind of intersex characteristic in their genitalia, and 1 in every 1,000 babies have genitalia that is undefinable as male or female. There are more chromosome combinations than just XX and XY. The fact we live in a society that freaks out when there aren’t neat binaries to put people in and thus need to “fix” it with medical intervention is very telling; if you’ve ever been to Africa where kids run around with no pants on then you would know there are MANY ways for genitals to form, not just the stereotypical ones we’re shown in sex education in schools, if we’re even lucky enough to HAVE sex education in schools.

        My advice would be before spouting off about the infallible nature of biology that you actually take the time to know what you’re talking about first; Jones is most certainly not the be all and end all of this discussion and frankly the fact that he is even being cited here smacks of rigid ignorance and a blatant unwillingness to think outside of the nice, neat little boxes we’ve all be taught to think exist.

        • Eddie

          Thank you for that reply. I was waiting for the intersex lobby to show up and I am amazed it took over 24 hours.
          Read some biology – (note: NOT about gender and society but about mitrochondial DNA etc). As Steve Jones rightly says there can only be 2 sexes – not 3 – because of cell structure at the most basic level.
          You seem to be obsessed by genitals. Now, biology can throw up some real mutations and freaks. But at the cellular level, there are just two sexes. End of.
          You have not got a clue what you are talking about – andd like a lot of people who don’t, and who are ignorant, confuse scientific FACT with the sociological campaigns and emotional confusion.
          An unwillingnes to think outside the neat little boxes? Not if it means spouting the kind of simpleton science and false reasoning you display. Neat boxes? Oh like the neat box that says a sperm meets an egg. Or the one that says a human being has only one head? Or that there are around 14 hours in a day?
          You can’t expect your gender theory to trump science because no matter how hurtful you find it, the scientific fact is all there is. Two sexes. End of. The biology shows that it CANNOT BE ANY OTHER WAY because of the structure of cells. Ever wondered why there are 2 sexes? Well, that’s why. Mitrochondial DNA.
          Gender is another issue – to do with society. Really, this is BASIC stuff here.

          • Sarah

            This from the man who, when he put his mind to the proposition of how there could be vaginaless women, came up with magicians’ assistants who’d been sawn in half.

            Intersex involves chromosomal anomalies. That’s cell structure at it’s most basic level.

            • Eddie

              Psycho Stalker Sarah – yet again stalking me and replying to every one of my posts with lies and libel. Still, mental illness and unemployment are terrible things, so it’s good you have a hobby, you brainless bint.

              There are ONLY two sexes because there only CAN be 2 sexes – and that is determined by basic cell structure. That’s why there are not 3 sexes or 4 or 5. That is scientific FACT.

              Gender is about society, perception, opinion and emotion and THAT is whay you silly bints and babblig about.

              Leave the science to the men who understand it, there’s a good little manhating feminbot.

              For those interested, read some Steve Jones about evolution. Ignore the morons like Sarah who spout lies and crap and confuse emotion/opinion and fact. It’s not their fault – it’s the female emo-brain at work there and they’re just parroting what they’re read in Manhater Monthly or some other feminist selfpity magazine.

              Like most women, you are scientifically illiterate – that’s why males dominate science courses at universities, why most inventions were invented by men, why 95% of surgeons are men. Women just aren;’t usually cut out for it at all – and have a mediocre middling intelligence more suited to group hugs and emotional pornography rather that hard rational science.

              • Sue Ward

                Eddie occasionally makes a good point as does Sarah but I find the vile abuse and constant bickering into which their communications invariably descend very depressing. It is reminiscent of the old Coffee House Wall and the constant argy-bargy of Verity and her foes which put me off visiting that page during my lunch breaks.

                Can you both take it outside, or get a room?

                • Eddie

                  I find it tiresome too – but then, I am the victim here being stalked by psycho Sarah and accused of being, in order:

                  a racist

                  a sexist

                  a paedophile

                  a teacher who’s on the sex offender’s register

                  My responses are to that libel and lies – and I have the right to response to such filth agressively and with insults, I feel. I reply to people in kind, so if they do not abuse and insult me with such lies, then I won’t attack them in a similar way.

                  Sounds fair enough to me.

                  Sarah however follows me from discussion to discussion posting insults and abuse after everything I post. I do not stalk her.
                  I too wish Sarah would get a room. Maybe one with well-sealed windows and the gas oven turned on…

                • Jane Fae

                  perhaps if your tone was a tad politer, it would be easier to disbelieve any insinuations posted?

                  From the manner in which you post, i’d find it very easy to believe the first two…in fact, on this very thread, with your references to brainless bints or similar and why women can’t do science?

                  Oh. I suspect you are one of those racist sexists who thinks that so long as you can rationalise a comment, it can’t possiobly be any sort of -ist.

                  The last two supposed allegations (which i haven’t seen made) are in quite a different category and i would suggest you simply report anyone who makes them: they are either true or untrue, in the sense that you either are or aren’t on the SOR.

                  If you’re not and someone posts that they are, get the comment removed.

                • Eddie

                  I did not say ‘women couldn’;t do science’. Liar.
                  I said that men tended to be better at science and maths and technology than women because of innate brain differences which cause diferent aptitudes and abilities. Most people would agree with that; no great inventions were invented by women, and the few women scienticsts are the exceptions that prove the rule.
                  I am not a racist or a sexist. The definition os a sexist is NOT someone who refuses to agree with extreme feminist opinion. Observing the reality of human behaviour, and the differences between the sexes is NOT sexist – because that word defines OPINIONS and not FACTS. For example, research shows that those people with an IQ in the top 10% are mostly male. Even German Greer says ‘women don’t do genius’!
                  I find that women do find it very hard to see the debate rationally and without emotion. Look at the facts, look ate the differences in the way boys and girls play: talking generally, there are male-type brains and female-type brains. MRI brain scans have disproven all feminist theories about social conditioning being the only cause of the difference in male/female behaviour.
                  I respond in kind to insults thrown at me. Sarah has accused me of being paedophile and a teacher on the sex offenderes register. And of being sexist (for disagreeing with her) and of being racist (for stating non-racist opinions).
                  I would say the bestb thing would be for people NOT to try and win an argument by screaming RACIST! or SEXIST! at other people: it is attempted bullying and blackmail. And those that fling such insults or use straw man arguments like Sarah does all the time have LOST the argument.

                • StephanieJCW

                  “I did not say ‘women couldn’;t do science’. Liar.I said that men tended to be better at science and maths and technology than women because of innate brain differences which cause diferent aptitudes and abilities. Most people would agree with that; no great inventions were invented by women, and the few women scienticsts are the exceptions that prove the rule.”

                  No, you said most women are scientifically illiterate.

    • Frank Sutton

      Brighton determinedly rooting itself in the imaginary part.

    • Baron

      what a relief, for a while Baron misread parts as farts.