Blogs

Israel is losing the battle in Britain

14 September 2012

5:02 PM

14 September 2012

5:02 PM

The simplest way to react to the madder pronouncements of the trade union movement is to dismiss it as so much infantile ‘group think’. Solidarity can be very selective and Israeli trade unionists are apparently discounted simply for being Israeli. The latest decision of the TUC to send a delegation to Gaza under the auspices of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign is not the daftest. But the idea that it would give delegates anything approaching balance is absurd.

My Bright on Politics column for the Jewish Chronicle this week was addressed to the Jewish community but the Israel/Palestine conflict has a wider resonance:

‘Supporters of Israel are losing the battle of ideas in the UK. This has probably been true for some time, if only they would admit it. But after this year’s TUC conference there is no longer any question about it, on the left at least.’

Read more here.

More Spectator for less. Stay informed leading up to the EU referendum and in the aftermath. Subscribe and receive 15 issues delivered for just £15, with full web and app access. Join us.




Show comments
  • Samir Halabi

    It only takes a person like SirMortimerPosh to influence feeble minded people who only need a slight push to start a 2nd ‘Holocaust of the Jewish People’ How dare he state that the Modern State of Israel was based on terrorism, Did the world care or do anything about the situation of Jews when Hitler came to power in 1933. In truth nobody wanted to take in Jewish refugees, they all didn’t want to fill up their countries with any more Jews than they already had. Today Europe now has 54,000,000 Muslims and barely 2,000,000 Jews if that in the whole of Europe including the UK. Most of the attacks which have being orchestrated against the Jews of Europe today has been committed by Muslims, only a minimum can be put down to right wing groups. So much for your peaceful Muslims.

    • Katie Shapland

      Samir – If you have read SirMortimerPosh’s comments on this thread then I assume you have read mine. You will know how much I support the Jewish people and the right of the state of Israel to exist in peace. You will have noticed that my support brought extreme opprobrium on my head from Sir Mortimer. I, too, see the danger in the almost careless words of hatred that come from such posters, and I understand the extra pain that you must feel if you are Jewish; I am not. I admit to being surprised at the position this particular poster takes on Israel. Despite his bluff and bluster on most topics he comments on, it is obvious that he is an intelligent and well-read man; and if you take away the gratuitous abuse in much of his (other) postings, his positions often seem well thought through and reasonably based. His tendency to an aggressive, black and white view of every issue does not assist congenial discussion, however, and it is possibly in his very intelligence and his ability to articulate his views, even with the gratuitous abuse, that his statements become dangerous in the way you suggest.

      You may not have seen other posts of mine, so may not know that I am also a very strong supporter of the Arab Spring and the everyday people of the Muslim world in their fight for freedom from oppression from their own leaders. Interestingly, SirMortimerPosh is not a supporter, as you also may not be.

      My main point in my original response to you, while understanding the pain of history that you feel, is that both sides looking backwards to find and continually emphasise fault after all this time, will never bring about peaceful co-existence. There has been so much pain; surely it is time for all parties to look to the future – for the sake of their children if not themselves – and not to the past. The self-perpetuating hatred needs to end.

      • SirMortimerPosh

        Why not save yourself the trouble? I haven’t the least desire to engage with more propaganda about poor little Israel. I spent my early adult life as an ardent supporter of Israel and it wasn’t until I realised what they were capable of in their vile destruction of Lebanon in 1982 and the callous targeting of civilians that I began to question the propaganda storm that zionism puts out. You don’t have to look far if you have some respect for the truth and for reality to realise that the victims in the Middle East are not the jews. Earlier in this thread, someone wrote about how Israel lives happily with lots of Arabs; they however are not and never can be equal citizens, because be definition, Israel HAS TO BE JEWISH. Now, there’s nothing wrong with being Jewish, nothing at all, but when a Jewish citizen of Israel is allowed to marry a foreigner and bring them home to Israel, and an Arab citizen of Israel never can and never will be allowed to marry another Arab from outside Israel’s border and bring them home to Israel, we can see that it is not a state based on moral principles of any kind. Israel is a state based on racism. Anyone – from anywhere in the world who has a Jewish female descent line can come to Israel. Indeed the government will pay for you to be brought there, but the descendants of the Arabs, who lived there for millennia can never go there and neither can the spouse of an Israeli Arab – supposed citizen. A citizen without equal rights is not a citizen at all, but like the American Indians is some subhuman that can be put on a Reservation – like Gaza in fact. Penned up, surrounded, not allowed to trade with the world, all power and all supplied controlled and restricted by Israel. Now ask me again why I despise the way they behave.

      • SirMortimerPosh
        • Katie Shapland

          SirMortimerPosh – I should like to respond to this post of yours, but then I find that you have re-posted an older comment, which begins with the following: ‘Why not save yourself the trouble? I haven’t the least desire to engage with more propaganda about poor little Israel…’ Are you trying to deter me from engaging with you on this subject, or would you like to know my views on the links that you have posted?

          • SirMortimerPosh

            You know what I think, and I know what you think. What’s the point? Israel is moving so far to the right now, that even its President Peres recently came out to condemn the Likud party as actively preventing the movement for Peace. When the president of a country laments the warmongering of its ruling party, that tells you something, or it should do.

            jerusalemonline.com/israel-news/archive/30.12.2012-news-from-israel

            ansamed.ansa.it/ansamed/en/news/nations/israel/2013/01/10/Israel-Peres-criticises-Netanyahu-stupid-ignore-PA-_8054381.html

            • Katie Shapland

              SirMortimer – Without commenting yet on the content of the several links you have posted, I ask you what your view would be if the Queen condemned any position of the government of the day in Britain? And if Britain had a non-executive President, with say, Tony Blair the incumbent, how much weight would you place on his condemning the Conservative Party government of the day. Peres was a Labor Prime Minister of Israel. I reiterate that my questions do not relate to the content of your links, just to your position that Peres speaking out adds special status to the content.

              • SirMortimerPosh

                Here’s what I have to say to you:

                “……………………………………………”

                • Katie Shapland

                  Ah, you do have such a way with words… you always did.

    • SirMortimerPosh

      OH – save your breath Samir. I am not about to swallow your Zionazi propaganda, and by the way, I am no fan of Islam either. The question is simply one of justice.

      I worked with a man who in earlier days had the privilege of dragging bodies out of the bombed King David Hotel. He was a soldier sent to Palestine to keep order. That attack and many others was carried out by the Irgun and the Stern Gang. They even have a museum in Israel detailing their terrorsm. In those days there were more Arabs in the land of Palestine than Jews. By the way – there is nothing wrong with Jews and I have far more in common with them than I do with Muslims – especially if they are Salafists or of other extremist bent. However – that aside, I don’t define human beings by their religion or their ethnic origin, unless they make it an issue by becoming radical, or demanding special privileges according to ethnic or religious origins. The facts are that Zionist groups operated a violent terroristic campaign against the British and when they moved to establish their state they operated punishment commandos (one was run by Ariel Sharron) which terrorised the arab civilian population and caused an exodus to neighbouring territories. This is a matter of record nd if you deny it you are a liar.

      As for your objection to what I wrote several months ago it lays out facts. There is not a ord of untruth in it. Israel is filling up with extremist Russians who support the murderous party of Netanyahu.

      EVEN THE ISRAELI PRESIDENT WENT ON RECORD LAST WEEK TO SAY THAT NETANYAHU’S PARTY AND THE PRIME MINISTER WERE INTENT ON DESTROYING ANY PROSPECT FOR PEACE.

      WHY WAS THAT I WONDER?????

  • Samir Halabi

    Many of us, when I mean of us I am referring to the Jews of the Arab world whom numbered 1,000,000 in the late 1940s down today to around 6,000 at the most.

    Some members of our family were hacked to death by those Arab-Muslim mobs, many of them we counted as our friends.

    The day will dawn when We will take revenge on the perpetrators still living who had partaken in that senseless slaughter of those innocent and defenseless Jews.
    Whether or not one day the Arab world will recognize Israel as the only Jewish State in the world, bears little consequence on us. We want justice, at least I want justice, I will never forget the way our people were treated by those barbarians.

    • Katie Shapland

      Samir – has there not been enough slaughter? I understand the individual pain that you feel, but how has this hatred in your heart and your desire for revenge helped you or Israel find peace? Nothing will change until there are more people of goodwill on both sides who want to look to peaceful co-existence in the future, than there are those ravaged inside with hatred towards ‘the other’ and who seem to be only able to look backwards.

  • Bob Hutton

    While I don’t, by any means, support everything that Israel has done and while I acknowledge that, at times, the IDF have done wrong my general support lies with Israel.
    I believe the creation of the Jewish state in 1948 was part of the ongoing fulfillment of Amos’ prophecy in the Bible. The last 2 verses of this book clearly state that Jews would return to the land and would never be uprooted. Consequently, all attempts to undermine support for Israel are doomed to fail.

  • Simon

    The Left really is getting into bed with the devil (Islam, as if you didn’t know!), I guess to try and keep itself relevant in an era that has long passed it by.

    Hence you get that cretinous ex-Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, a champion of gay rights, sharing a platform with one of the mad mullahs (Qaradawi or something), who would behead all homosexuals on sight.

    And Mr. Livingstone wants London to be ‘beacon’ for Islam! Both of them belong in a zoo. Actually, a new cartoon comes to mind – one with our Ken close behind the Mullah, who has a pained expression on his face…

    • Katie Shapland

      Simon – I’m a supporter of gay rights and the right of homosexual people to marry. I’m also a very strong supporter of the Arab Spring, and therefore the average Muslim person on the street. The image you paint is therefore very offensive… and (reluctantly) very funny.

      The contortions of the left (and strangely some ‘knighted’ conservatives) in hopping into bed with the extremists, aggressors and easily offended (rather than moderates) of Islam has all to do with their blind and bigoted hatred of the US and Israel over every other consideration.

      • Simon Morgan

        Katie – like you, I was a ardent supporter of the Arab Spring -even to the extent of rejoicing at the removal of Hosni Mubarek who had been a firm friend to the West.

        However, most of the Arab Spring countries have jumped out of the frying pan directly into the fire by embracing the MB and Islam. It has been a bad mistake on our part to support this revolution.

        Judging by the what has transpired thus far, perhaps we really need to think twice about supporting the rebels in Syria.

        Egypt is already looking to revamp the Peace Accord with Israel, and has aligned itself with Iran – that “beacon” of freedom and tolerance.

        It would seem that your ‘average Muslim’ simply does not have an ounce of common sense, and will have to learn the hard way what freedom really means.

        I wish it wasn’t so, but it is.

  • Andy Gill

    I agree that support for Israel is pretty thin on the ground on the left of British politics. But this is counterbalanced by a growing disgust with Islamism amongst ordinary people.

    The atrocities carried out by Islamic death squads and suicide bombers, the persecution of Christians in Pakistan, the Middle East and Africa, the frenzied riots and attacks on our embassies, and not least the grooming of young white women by Muslim gangs has created a groundswell of fear of and loathing for Islam. Why do you think the vast majority of the British people have comprehensively rejected large scale immigration?

    The left are having increasing difficulty squaring their support of Islamofascism with the principles of equality and freedom. If you want an example, just look at the recent split in the Respect party.

    • UpYours

      The truth is that more and more people “are having increasing difficulty squaring their support of ZioNAZIsm with the principles of ethics, equality and freedom.”

      • AY

        wow, – the automatic internet troll, should be 1002-th invention of muslim genius.

        • UpYours

          Says the Racist Supremacist Zionist hatemonger.

    • UpYours

      The truth is that more and more people “are having increasing difficulty squaring their support of ZioNAZIsm with the principles of ethics, equality and freedom.”

    • http://twitter.com/HWSHY HWSHY

      you’re right: when we realise exactly what israel has had to deal with in terms of arab opposition it is much easier to see that there are light-years of difference between the two sides. britain was certainly not able to manage palestine when they were given 100% responsibility.

      it should also be fully understood how britain did not make life very easy for the young jewish state, dividing up the land on various occasions, allowing non-jewish immigration to continue unchecked and unrecorded, and callously limiting Jewish immigration to 10,000 per year on the very eve of WWII and then holding Jews in gender-separated concentration camps as far afield as Mauritius during and after WWII during some years.
      the hypocrisy of the current left’s union with islam should be well documented and its larger inferences on the character of the left allowed to be seen. from universities to the mainstream media, there are many implicated in the bloodbath.

  • Augustus

    ” The consensus in large swathes of the left is quite simply this: Israel is the oppressor and the Palestinians the oppressed.” And it’s pretty obvious why that is. Since the fall of the Berlin Wall the ‘Palestinians’ is one of the few causes with which the left is still ideologically ready and willing to join themselves up with.

    • AY

      conservatives follow the same anti-Israeli narratives, and it is only logical that they do.
      the matter is, rulers just don’t have choice – the choice is between continuing shameful submission to sharia, and immediate hard confrontation.

      before our eyes, bigger and bigger parts of Britain pass into the hands of oil sheiks, and cities and institutions become swamped by the hordes of islamic colonizers, usurpers and infiltrators. the impression is that all major London museums are already under control of muslim militias (temporarily posing as “security”).

      how could one even think about supporting Israel or America, if rulers can’t provide sovereignety over own land, heritage and borders.

      • Augustus

        At the heart of events is the intention to create a Muslim caliphate stretching across the Middle East, Northern Africa, and into Southeast Asia. One that will stretch into Europe and, presumably, America. The aim is to establish governments in which Sharia law will replace any remnants of democracy and freedom. The history of Islam reveals a pattern of conquest by a cult that venerates a self-proclaimed prophet. After Mohammed died his followers launched “holy wars” to spread Islam and, in the process, created the schism between Sunnis and Shiites concerning who was Mohammed’s rightful successor. They still disagree and, as we have seen, do not hesitate to kill one another. Militant Islam is on the rise again, driven in large measure by Iran, but also funded and encouraged by Saudi Arabia despite its reliance on American military power to protect it. The present turmoil has nothing to do with a quest for democracy and freedom. In all likelihood, Israel will have to mount a military mission to damage Iran’s nuclear programme. If it does not, it will be destroyed. After Israel, America and the West will be next. So let’s root for Israel even if the present administration does not.

        • Simon

          Exactly so. The Israelis will ultimately deny the Iranian regime the nuclear blackmail it craves. In fact they have already taken out some some of their nuclear scientists.

          All sensible people will be rooting for Israel in this endeavour, especially the Saudis.

          • mightymark

            And, from what I hear form an ex pat, the Emiratis!

        • Simon

          Exactly so. The Israelis will ultimately deny the Iranian regime the nuclear blackmail it craves. In fact they have already taken out some some of their nuclear scientists.

          All sensible people will be rooting for Israel in this endeavour, especially the Saudis.

  • David Lindsay

    What is there for the Left to like about Israel anymore?

    • Bluesman

      Mike’s Bar.

    • mightymark

      Yeah – and what have the Romans ever done for us!

  • victor67

    Its the Occupation Stupid! In the 60s and 70s Israel had widespread support on the left as well as the right. However the embattled tiny state that is the perpetual victim narrative is largely been exposed.
    It started with the bloody invasion and occupation of Lebanon and was compounded by the brutal suppresion of both Intifada’s . Isarael has a dilema now with the 2 State solution almost dead and its not just the radical left making the apartheid comparison in the occupied territories.
    The threat to Israel as a jewish state does not come from an illusionary Iranian bomb but the extreme zionists in the settler movement and zealous Likudniks that pursue the greater Israel project. They now hold sway in the Israeli political discourse and have turned it into a quasi-fascist state.
    This is why Israel is losing the battle in Europe and even more worryingly for them among young liberal American jews many of whom have turned their back on the Jewish State.

    • AY

      yeah yeah we’ve heard it many times, the whole world is in danger if Jews build another kindergarden in the place where they live.

      no bigger danger, no matter if the whole ME around, is walking knee-deep in blood.

      in the last year and half, more than 60K Arabs were killed in their idiotic wars and riots – everywhere in ME, except, you know, Israel.
      it is evil Zionist occupation, that keeps 1.2M Israeli Arabs safe.. which is certainly another Yiddish conspiracy – Jews just wait until Arab multiply in big numbers and then will eat them all alive, at once.

      • victor67

        Whataboutism is a weak argument.

        • AY

          eeh.. applying double standards are so much better.

          btw you can ask anyone in Israel about “greater Israel” – and majority will think you are an idiot.
          the backbone of Israeli society are secular people who simply want wars and attacks on their country to stop.
          but not by any price, not by the price of submission.
          Israelis have good reasons, and strong will to defend their land.
          and you can’t do anything about it.
          egypt and syria and jordan with armies, arafat with terrorists, hamas with suicide bombers, hezbolla with rockets, – they all tried and failed.
          so, do you think you will succeed with your homegrown propaganda?
          c’mon.

          • victor67

            No the ultra zionists are doing a far better job of destroying Israel than any of their above adversaries

            • realzionist

              Martin how do you feel about the Zionist Federation and the EDL link up ?

    • SirMortimerPosh

      WEll said Victor. That is exactly my position. Your post is so accurate that I am going to repeat the entire thing. Your experience exactly mirrors my own. Israel had no more ardent non-Jewish supporter than me until the invasion of Lebanon in the 1980s and then I saw it for what it was – a monster.

      Victor’s post:

      “Its the Occupation Stupid! In the 60s and 70s Israel had widespread support on the left as well as the right. However the embattled tiny state that is the perpetual victim narrative is largely been exposed. It started with the bloody invasion and occupation of Lebanon and was compounded by the brutal suppresion of both Intifada’s . Isarael has a dilema now with the 2 State solution almost dead and its not just the radical left making the apartheid comparison in the occupied territories.
      The threat to Israel as a jewish state does not come from an illusionary Iranian bomb but the extreme zionists in the settler movement and zealous Likudniks that pursue the greater Israel project. They now hold sway in the Israeli political discourse and have turned it into a quasi-fascist state.
      This is why Israel is losing the battle in Europe and even more worryingly for them among young liberal American jews many of whom have turned their back on the Jewish State.”

  • AY

    here is an example of outcome from a single-neuron brain working in “journalism” regime.

  • anyfool

    They are not losing the battle of ideas, they are losing the left of centre to their new best friends the Muslims, 40 years ago the Jews were the lefts right on group to support, now it is not politically correct to oppose any Palestinian terrorist atrocity regardless of whether there is any justification.

    • SirMortimerPosh

      Rubbish. Only a lunatic would support any kind of terrorist activity, or hesitate to condemn it. the problem is that an increasingly violent Israeli state, more hardline than any before, is seen day by day oppressing their neighbours, while bleating about ‘terrorists’. You can never win acceptance here while people can see the day by day brutalisation of people whose land you have stolen. Israel may be successful in the United States where people are stupid, ill-informed religious fundamentalists, but in rational Europe, we are well able to see who is creating the real terrorism; It is the people wrapped in a blue star.

      I am certainly no supporter of Islamists – I loathe them and their religious fascism beyond measure, but I also loathe the other brutal fundamentalists who think it acceptable, ethnically cleanse the Palestine of the 1940s where they were by no means a majority, and afterwards to persistently seize land and oppress the remnant of the people they dispossessed. Israel and Israelis have created the problem they now face as increasingly radical opposition grows up in the land around them. the only solution is a single state in which all people, regardless of which ridiculous religion they believe in are equal in every respect. I won’t be holding my breath waiting for this to happen, but Israel will quite rightly be regarded as a pariah until justice is done.

      • Augustus

        Firstly, Arabs and Jews are both from the same ethnic group, they are both of the Semitic culture and language. So your use of ‘ethnically cleanse the Palestine of the 1940s’ is complete rubbish. But those Arabs of the 1940s no longer call themselves Arabs or Syrians, but “Palestinians”. This has resulted in a switch of national
        identity. The Palestinians used to be the Jews during the Mandate Period, but the Arabs
        adopted the name after the Jews of Palestine established the State of Israel and
        began to be called Israelis. The use of the name “Palestinians” for Arabs did
        not take general hold until 1969 when the United Nations recognized the
        existence of this supposed new nation, and began passing resolutions thereafter
        affirming its legitimate and inalienable rights to Palestine. The whole idea
        that such a nation exists is the greatest hoax of the 20th century
        and continues unabated into the 21st century. This hoax is easily exposed by the fact that the “Palestinians” possess no
        distinctive history, language or culture, and are not essentially different from the Arabs living in the neighbouring countries of
        Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq. The very name of the supposed nation is
        non-Arabic in origin and derives from Hebrew root letters. The Arabs of
        Palestine have no connection or relationship to the ancient Philistines from
        whom they took their new name.

        • http://twitter.com/HWSHY HWSHY

          the letter P doesnt exist in Arabic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • Malfleur

        “You can never win acceptance here while people can see the day by day brutalisation of people whose land you have stolen.”

        You show a profound ignorance of history which suggests that you have never engaged in the battle of ideas yourself – the very definition of the bien pensant pontificator. The so-called “Palestinians” have their own state in Jordan. “Palestine” was at the disposal of the British by right of conquest from the Ottoman Empire, which no longer exists, and a small part of it happily devolved as we British intended to the Jews. The brutality of and ethnic cleansing by islam, against which the besieged 8 million Israelis have to defend themselves,should be apparent even to the man who needs a monocle to see clearly. Could Great Britain keep alive its right to England through 2,000 years of exile? I would like to think so; but I have to doubt it, and I fear we may find out. Go and study.

        • victor67

          Pity nobody told King Abdullah that he had to give his state to 3rd party. thats Chutzpah for you.

          • Joanne

            It’s that the British should not have given it to him in the first place. They lopped of 85% of Palestine just to pay back an Arabian sheik who had helped them in World War 1.

        • Joanne

          I believe that the Jews were the majority in the territories given to them. In the war of 1948, they won more.

      • Katie Shapland

        Sir Mortimer – increasingly violent Israeli state? The USA where people are stupid, ill-informed religious fundamentalist? Rational Europe?

        Your overwhelming sense of your own righteousness and the superiority of your own kind over the hoi polloi of the greatest democracy in this world and the only democracy in the Middle East is exactly the sort of fundamentalist hubris and prejudice that fuels (and excuses, however otherwise you pretend) the outrageous, cowardly, barbaric, terrorism of the fascist Islamists across the globe, today.

        You were once a teacher I understand. Given the wild and inaccurate assertions in your second paragraph, not in the discipline of modern history, I should hope.

        • Wessex Man

          Katie Shapland
          The Isreali State was formed by a bunch of terroist gangsters who were happy to butcher both Arab and British Mandate troops trying to stop them. In the Falklands War Isreal had sent missiles to Argentina and our forces were spared them only because we had defeated them before arrival.
          The State of Isreal hate we British, still carry out evictions of Palestinians as we discuss the very issue. They are no better than the Redneck settlers who stole the land of the Native Americans.

          • Katie Shapland

            Wessex Man – more rabid hatred and anti-Jewish prejudice and rhetoric based on total (incoherent) fallacy. Not one of SirMortimerPosh’s students of fractured modern history by any chance?

            • Wessex Man

              Katie Shapland,
              I do hope you come back to this, it seems the rabid hatred is coming from one direction but it’s not my direction.
              You are so typical of the pro Isreali propogandists who seek always to silence people by accusing us of an anti-Jewish prejudice. I have absolutely nothing against the Jewish race, I do have a problem with the bullying State of Isreal and it appears that so do many Jews in America where support for Isreal is falling away.
              Are you so prejudiced that you deny the way this State of Isreal was formed?

              • http://twitter.com/HWSHY HWSHY

                the language you threw around doesn’t warrant a much better response. but you suddenly cleaned up in your reply to her.

                • Wessex Man

                  HWSHY
                  I don’t think I have cleaned anything up, she’s an extremist who thinks that all the western world should agree with her and those who don’t suddenly hate all the Jews in all the world, whereas more and more Jews are appalled by the actions of Israel or Isreal, AY get a life!

              • AY

                “Isreal” is quite enough to recognize the stuff.

                • Ethan56

                  Wessex Man is so knowledgeable that he cannot even spell Israel correctly!! Enough said about HIM.

                • AY

                  no that is their anti-Semitic cryptography, 1003-th invention, – they are, kinda, dubious if Israel “is real”.

              • Mike

                Wessex Man.
                1. Landowners , largely staying in Beirut old land at premium rates to to jewish people from 1890s to 1930s and British tried to dissuade them from doing so.
                2. Gand Mufti Of Jerusalem supported violence against jewish settlers and arabs who worked with them, which led to Wingate forming special Night Squads. Kismet that Jews ended up being trained by one of the finest special forces officers of WW2- his ability covered selection, training tachtics and strategy.
                3. Gr M of J supported violence against Jews, supported Hitler , and raised troops to fight with Nazis. Gr M of J whipped up mob against Jews leading to 800 being slaughterd in Baghdad in 1941.
                4. Jews accepted Peel commission which would have given them 20% of Israel, arabs rejected it.
                5. Stalin supported the formation of Israel because he was not too happy with muslims supporting Hitler.
                6. Arabs declared war on Jewish State and threatened slaughter. Israel won 1948 War in part due to training received in SNS( e.g Moshe Dayan) and having fought with Allies in WW2.
                7. Arab armies asked arabs within Israel to leave so they could slaughter the Jews and were told they would would return at end of War.
                8. Arab Army lost war of 1948, apart from Jordon which occupied West Bank . King Abdullah was only arab leader prepared to try and negotiate peace dut was only one who deafeated Israel .
                9. If arabs had not sold land to Jewish settlers, not attacked settlers, supported the Allies in WW2, not listened to leaders to flee and accepted the UN 1947 partition,there would probably be a Palestinian state with a Jewish minority.
                10.Arab nations have tried to destroy and failed to do so 1948, 1966and 1973. PLO have undertaken acts of terrorism such as Entebbe and Achilo Lauro which has alienated public support .
                Perhaps it is time for Palestinians and Arab nations to think of other strategies. In fact Palestinians trying to win the argument against Israel in the West looks to be more successful.

          • BlitheSpirit

            @ Wessex Man
            ” In the Falklands War Isreal had sent missiles to Argentina…”

            So did the French. It was a French Exocet missile that sank HMS Sheffield fired from a French Super Etendard jet, Your point is irrelevant.

            The Israelis left Gaza in 2005, demolishing settlers’ homes, military checkpoints etc. Despite this they have endured thousands more rocket attacks every month.

            I have every sympathy with the American Indians, but the situation in the ME is not a valid comparison.

      • Augustus

        ” but in rational Europe, we are well able to see who is creating the real terrorism; It is the people wrapped in a blue star.”
        So who do you really loathe? The millions of Israeli men, women and children who live under the constant rain rockets, mortars and missiles from the Gaza Strip? Or those who continue to fill the West Bank and Gaza with hatred and incitement, where the next generation of Palestinian children is being taught that suicide bombers are heroes, that Jews have no connection to the Holy Land, and that they must seek to annihilate the State of Israel? From cradles to kindergarten classrooms; from the grounds of summer camps to the stands of football stadiums; from the names of public squares to the public pronouncements of Palestinian leaders, these messages are everywhere. Washed in the blood of innocents, these terrorists are being held up as role models for the next generation of Palestinian children. Shouldn’t a sustainable peace take root in homes, schools, and media that teach tolerance and understanding so that it can grow in hearts and minds? True friends of the Palestinians have a responsibility to tell them the truth. They must renounce violence, recognize Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state, and abide by prior agreements. And above all, stop promoting their distorted version of history. Israel cannot be accused by anyone of “occupying” lands under international law
        that were clearly part of the Jewish National Home or the Land of Israel. Thus
        the whole debate today that centres on the question of whether Israel must
        return “occupied territories” to their alleged Arab owners in order to obtain
        peace is one of the greatest falsehoods of international law and diplomacy.

      • Simon

        “to persistently seize land and oppress the remnant of the people they dispossessed.” – what planet are you on?

        Anyone out there with any recollection of the history of this interminable conflict, will know that Israel was ATTACKED by it’s neighbors at least twice.

        And, do not use the term ‘ethnically cleanse’ in any reference to Israel. You are doing a mighty disservice to all those murdered in the gas chambers. Shame on you.

        • Katie Shapland

          Simon – presumably Sir Mortimer is a fan of the revisionist historian, Ilan Pappe, as the intemperate language in his post could be straight out of any one of Pappe’s firebrand speeches and written works of hatred and self-loathing (Pappe is an Israeli Jew, after all). I just wonder if the very conservative, Sir Mortimer, realises that Pappe is a member of the extremely left-wing Hadash party, with all the intellectual dishonesty and strange bedfellows (communists, black panthers) that comes with that affiliation.

          • Simon

            Katie – I was introduced to this Ilan Pappe just the other day in a Q & A debate on ABC tv. He is a truly horrible little man and a throwback to the era of the likes of Wedgwood Benn / Michael Foot etal. To give ABC it’s due there was also an Israeli lawyer on the show to put the record straight against this ‘villain’ (to use the quaint terminolgy of our buffoon above). The worrying thing about Pappe is that he is ensconced as a (history) Professor at Exeter University! Madrassa comes to mind!!

            • Katie Shapland

              Simon – how nice to have a gentleman address me by name; the knighted one above never does. I am disappointed not to have seen the Q&A in ‘question’. Not so much to see Pappe – I can imagine his ravings; I’ve heard them often enough before – but to appreciate the challenge to him. It isn’t difficult, after all, his positions are so intellectually dishonest and historically weak – typical left-wing ranting and raving, with rhetoric in abundance and evidence in short supply. The modus operandi of the left – you say it often enough and shout it loudly enough and it becomes accepted wisdom! I’ll bet the Israeli lawyer had difficulty getting a word in.

              The worrying thing is not just that Pappe is a professor at Exeter, but that in so many disciplines, the communists and socialists of an earlier discredited era have found the only (comfy, tenured) place where their dominance by sheer force of numbers means that they still have influence – our universities.

        • SirMortimerPosh

          Oh – don’t come the ‘gas chamber’ game with me you villain. The foul deeds of Nazi Germany do not give modern Jews the right to dispossess and ethnically cleanse the West Bank – a land outside the legitimate territory of Israel, and now peppered with armed outposts and so called settlements. The only other nation in the worl which supports the vile actions of Israeli expansionists is the USA – a nation which itself got its land in exactly the same way; by genocide and dispossession of the native people. YOUR VILLAINY will come to haunt you. All people are entitled to their independence and their own land. YOU LOT STOLE the entire fu cking country that you had pre-1967, and since then have done even more of the same. In the last year alone, Netanyahu (curses upon him and his descendants for ever) has settled a quarter of a million Jews on the West Bank.

          • Simon

            You still don’t get it. The Israeli ‘expansion’ is due, in it’s entirety, to the aggression of Israel’s neighbors.

            That’s what happens when you start wars you can’t win! The winner can take as much land as it deems appropriate to firstly protect itself from further aggression and/or expand.

            That is exactly what happened in the Golan Heights and West Bank. Of course the Arabs and Syrians don’t like this – but it is entirely their fault. How does this equate to your ‘STOLE’????

            Israel evacuated it’s settlements in the Sinai after it’s peace accord with Egypt – that’s what happens when you want peace -get it yet????

            You live in a fantasy world, to put it as mildly as I can. But if you have any common sense or decency at all, I would caution you not to use the term ‘ethnic cleansing’ in any reference to Israel.

            Whether you like it not, Israel is the only democratic country in the region (notwithstanding the so-called Arab Spring countries who it seems have blown their chances).

            There are millions of Arabs who peacefully co-exist with Jews in Israel. Israel is the ONLY nation genuinely trying to find a resolution to the Palestinian issue – the rest are only interested in destroying Israel.

            Those are the FACTS.

            • SirMortimerPosh

              “That’s what happens when you start wars you can’t win! The winner can take as much land as it deems appropriate to firstly protect itself from further aggression and/or expand.”

              Ah – your first argument, and it falls flat on its face. THERE IS NO SUCH RULE OR LAW EXCEPT IN THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE OR THE CRIMINAL BULLY. You obviously haven’t heard of UN Resolution 242 of 1967 which explicitly demands the withdrawal by Israel from all land occupied in the war and the inadmissibility of the acquisition of land by conquest. This was a unanimous resolution by the world community.

              The existence of multiple resolutions condemning Israeli misconduct towards their neighbours seems to elude you.

              • Katie Shapland

                So suddenly you’re a fan of the UN… Mortimer?

                The Israelis did not win the land by conquest, but rather in wars waged against them.

                Israel gave back the Gaza Strip and looked what happened – Hamas immediately used the returned land to continue to rain rockets on her… just from closer range.

                You keep coming back with bigoted rage and empty rhetoric about the American and Israeli people, and just totally ignore the challenges by Simon, Nicholas and Augustus (amongst others) to your revisionist and totally inaccurate (Ilan Pappe) history of the region. Why don’t you leave your pompous sense of superiority and your cosy, safe-from-daily-rocket-attacks British armchair and respond properly to the issues they raise?

                Btw, I am not Israeli and I am not Jewish, but I find your insensitive use (more than once) of the term ‘ethnic cleansing’ in your despicable rants against Israel, not only wildly inaccurate, but deeply offensive… and disingenuous.

                • SirMortimerPosh

                  As usual your posts are full of foolishness. You are sadly ill-informed. You should read the well publicised words of Moshe Dayan who was defence minister at the time in 1967. He has been honest enough, or indiscrete enough to let us all into the truth about who provoked the war in ’67.

                  On Israeli settlements on the Golan Heights and in Hebron, in a 1976 interview with Rami Tal, as quoted in Associated Press reports (11 May 1997):

                  “Along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps — there was only the Syrian army… The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land … and they dreamed about it… They didn’t even try to hide their greed for the land… We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn’t possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn’t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that’s how it was…The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.”

                • SirMortimerPosh

                  Quotes of Dayan from Righteous Victims : A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-1999 by Benny Morris

                  “Using the moral yardstick mentioned by [Moshe Sharett], I must ask: Are [we justified] in opening fire on the Arabs who cross [the border] to reap the crops they planted in our territory; they, their women, and their children? Will this stand up to moral scrutiny . . .? We shoot at those from among the 200,000 hungry arabs who cross the line — will this stand up to moral review? Arabs cross to collect the grain that they left in the abandoned villages and we set mines for them and they go back without an arm or a leg. . . [It may be that this] cannot pass review, but I know no other method of guarding the borders. then tomorrow the State of Israel will have no borders.
                  On the anti-infiltration policy in the early 1950s
                  The only method that proved effective, not justified or moral but effective, when Arabs plant mines on our side [is retaliation]. If we try to search for the [particular] Arab [who planted mines], it has not value. But if we harass the nearby village . . . then the population there comes out against the [infiltrators] . . . and the Egyptian Government and the Transjordanian Government are [driven] to prevent such incidents, because their prestige is [assailed], as the Jews have opened fire, and they are unready to begin a war . . . the method of collective punishment so far has proved effective.”

                • SirMortimerPosh

                  Quotes of Dayan from The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World by Avi Shlaim

                  “Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.
                  We should demand his blood not from the Arabs of Gaza but from ourselves. . . . Let us make our reckoning today. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . . Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who sit all around us and wait for the moment when their hands will be able to reach our blood.
                  We could not guard every water pipeline from being blown up and every tree from being uprooted. We could not prevent every murder of a worker in an orchard or a family in their beds. But it was in our power to set high price for our blood, a price too high for the Arab community, the Arab army, or the Arab governments to think it worth paying. . . It was in our power to cause the Arab governments to renounce ‘the policy of strength’ toward Israel by turning it into a demonstration of weakness.
                  All that is required is to find an officer, even a captain would do, to win his heart or buy him with money to get him to agreed to declare himself the savior of the Maronite population. Then the Israeli army will enter Lebanon, occupy the necessary territory, create a Christian regime that will ally itself with Israel. The territory from Litani southward will be totally annexed to Israel, and everything will fall into place.
                  While trying to work out a plan to internally destabilize Lebanon in favor of a Christian-Maronite government.
                  A new State of Israel with broad frontiers, strong and solid, with the authority of the Israel Government extending from the Jordan to the Suez Canal.
                  Statement made in April 1973 from the peaks of Massada.
                  During the last 100 years our people have been in a process of building up the country and the nation, of expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that we are near the end of the road.
                  Ma’ariv, 7 July 1968.”

                • SirMortimerPosh

                  What a piece of shit this post is. You accuse me of revisionism and yet suck up the American/Zionist account of the history. I have no bigotry at all, and no love of any kind of extremist, but when a state, formed in ethnic cleansing, settles millions of foreigners in an area which once had 150,000 Jews and about 200,000 Arabs in it, dragging in all manner of people from every corner of the earth as long as their mother has a Jewish blood connection, and then, supported by the vilest elements in America with billions of dollars a year, uses that to wage atrocious levels of disproportionate violence on its neighbours – I think only a fool could take exception to my position. Virtually nobody in Europe would, or in Britain, except a tiny rump of Zionist fanatics.
                  The appalling destruction in Lebanon in the 1980s, the devastation again in Lebanon in 2006, the wanton murder of Operation Cast Lead in 2009 (after which numerous Israeli soldiers publicised the wanton murder carried out on civilians and the impact of fanatic Rabbis on the approach of the troops) show that Israel should be isolated by all civilised nations as a pariah state.

                  You talk about millions being reined down on by rockets from Gaza. Do you know how many Israelis were killed by rockets since 2001? Fewer than twenty. I do not support rockets, or the targeting of civilians on either side, but in the same time period, the IDF has killed over six thousand Arabs, almost 1500 of them were minors. That number does not take account of the losses in the 2006 invasion of Lebanon, which is conservatvely reckoned to have killed 1300 civilians, nor the losses of civilians in Cast Lead in 2009.

                  When BIBI attacks Iran in the lead up to the American elections, which he may well do, we will see oil prices at levels we have never seen.

                  Don’t call me disingenuous. Only a fool could take such a view.

                • Katie Shapland

                  Oh, too many espressos this morning, Sir Mortimer Charm? I was in the process of responding to your very dignified and reasonable (though ill-informed) posts of last night. I was disarmed by your manner, foolish woman that I am… as you say. I am no longer inclined to reply as I had intended. I shall respond later to this more recent, more in character, response of yours.

                • SirMortimerPosh

                  Why not save yourself the trouble? I haven’t the least desire to engage with more propaganda about poor little Israel. I spent my early adult life as an ardent supporter of Israel and it wasn’t until I realised what they were capable of in their vile destruction of Lebanon in 1982 and the callous targeting of civilians that I began to question the propaganda storm that zionism puts out. You don’t have to look far if you have some respect for the truth and for reality to realise that the victims in the Middle East are not the jews. Earlier in this thread, someone wrote about how Israel lives happily with lots of Arabs; they however are not and never can be equal citizens, because be definition, Israel HAS TO BE JEWISH. Now, there’s nothing wrong with being Jewish, nothing at all, but when a Jewish citizen of Israel is allowed to marry a foreigner and bring them home to Israel, and an Arab citizen of Israel never can and never will be allowed to marry another Arab from outside Israel’s border and bring them home to Israel, we can see that it is not a state based on moral principles of any kind. Israel is a state based on racism.

                • Katie Shapland
            • realzionist

              ” …….the inadmissability of the acquisition of territory by war.”

    • victor67

      When was the last Palestinian terrorist atrocity? 99% of resistance to occupation is now non-violent. Yet the BDS campaign gets labelled “deligitamization” Just what kind of resistance would be acceptable?
      As Arafat said the Pals are not the Red Indians. They are not going away or even to Jordan!

      • http://twitter.com/HWSHY HWSHY

        when was last pal atrocity?

        says it all

        • AY

          :)
          guy is lost completely.

      • AY

        last atrocity was in Itamar last year.

        so what is your opinion, – was the planned slaughter of 11, 4 and 0.4 year old children justified? children killed purely on the basis of them being Jews. if you don’t answer, – it will mean yes you justify it.

        • victor67

          The murder of th Fogal family was a rogue individual similar to Baruch Goldstein. It is not even clear a Palestinian was involved.

Close
Can't find your Web ID? Click here