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Channel 4 cancels Tom Holland’s history of Islam, but the extremists will not win

11 September 2012

6:30 PM

11 September 2012

6:30 PM

In what may prove to be the most depressingly predictable story of the year, we learn that Channel 4 has chosen to cancel a screening of Tom Holland’s programme ‘Islam: the untold story‘ tomorrow night  because of threats to the author and presenter.

If there is a reason why so many stories and facts to do with Islam remain ‘untold’ it is simply because of this. None of the people who threatened Tom Holland even have to mean it — the threat is enough to ensure that Channel 4 don’t go ahead. I don’t blame them, and have seen this happen too many times, in too many different countries, to be surprised. Not all threats have to be taken seriously (the Tom Daley Twitter case being one such example), but when they come from quarters which have acted on such threats before then they should be.

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Nevertheless what one might term as these ‘hard’ attempts to silence a discussion as well as the slightly ‘softer’ efforts to censor Mr Holland and Channel 4 (discussed in my previous post on this subject) are a scandal and I hope they receive the widespread disgust they deserve. The fact that extremists can stop a screening should be worrying to everybody who cares about our free societies.

But as I said before, those who are trying to stop this debate — even if they succeed for a short time — will lose in the long term. Such people are, essentially, Canutes — albeit dangerous ones. People who try to stop factual, historical, inquiry are shouting — often very unpleasantly — at the waves to stop. But the waves will not stop. They will continue to come roaring in, whether tomorrow night’s screening occurs or not.

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Show comments
  • Lindum

    The extremists have already won.

  • rndtechnologies786

    Think is nice.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sajid-Hussain/100002798194578 Sajid Hussain

    youtu.be/aAMX3ecS6Kc

    The Jinn And Tonic Show tomorrow will have Tom Holland as a guest – the producer of the Channel 4 documentary “Islam – The untold story” and author of “In the shadow of the sword.” It is possible to watch the show live on BlogTV (link on the video) and if you wish you may also call in to the show with Skype.

  • http://300wordtheses.blogspot.co.uk/ Gerry Dorrian

    I agree with Barry. People who are unhappy with democracy and its partner free speech should go to countries where they won’t be bothered with them.

  • Paul Longhurst

    While you’re all wittering on, has no-one noticed that the hordes of Islam have
    already declared war on all non-believers (sic)? Even Australia cannot avoid
    with the fury that’s about to hit all corners of the World. Until the crazed
    disciples are brought to a halt, there will be no peace in this World (and
    probably the next, should there be one). But still the so-called civilised nations
    fail to recognise the signs and this national suicide by complacency will reap
    the what it sows.

  • Trofim

    Incidentally, you can still watch it on the Channel 4 website: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/islam-the-untold-story/4od#3401340

  • SirMortimerPosh

    I have no time for ignorant, stupid Americans backed by Jewish money that has been deliberately applied to create affront across the world among Muslims. I despise ignorant bigotry. However, neither do I have time for medievalist, misogynistic religious bigots wearing beards who go into a frenzy any time anyone points out that their backward culture has become a blight on the modern world and threaten to kill people, or actually do it. Although I know some perfectly decent Muslim citizens, there seem to be plenty of their co-religionists who are amongst the vilest people on the planet.

    • T. Botham

      Check your facts concerning stupid Americans backed by Jewish money. The ” Israeli Jew” film-maker of the AP’s original reports has evaporated. In his place is an Egyptian Copt claiming to live in Hollywood. There has been no confirmation of “Jewish donors” originally reported by the AP.

  • Tim Brundle

    I could find no academic credentials in history for Tom Holland. Why is this man being wrongly promoted as a historian by Channel 4?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tom-Kwiatkowski/1247446469 Tom Kwiatkowski

    QUESTION THE COSTS OF CENSORSHIP. In the midst of the attacks on the United States occurring in various Middle East cities that are being blamed on a movie or video critical of, perhaps “blasphemous” to, Islam (I have not seen it, only hearing some vague general descriptions), some Americans are understandably asking whether our government to take steps to stop depictions or opinions that inflame Islamic sensibilities that are clearly not attuned to, or certainly not accepting of, the downside of freedom of speech under our First Amendment. After all, if you and I assume that the movie is profanely blasphemous of Islam, and that we don’t think like that and have done nothing to produce or distribute the movie, or even attend it, what does it matter to you or me what is done to that movie and/or to those “other” people responsible for the movie, in response to these actual vicious attacks that are costing innocent lives?

    QUESTION THE COSTS OF CENSORSHIP in and of itself or in response to blackmail. Shall we pass laws to seize all copies of the movie and block it on the internet? If the movie continues to be disseminated “underground,” should we then pass laws imposing criminal penalties on people for producing such material, for distributing it… for viewing it? If no penalty under our law would satisfy the Islamic world (or at least the extremists fomenting the attacks), perhaps we should really show multicultural sensitivity and pass a law allowing extradition to the mullahs for judgment under Sharia law. Now who shall determine what is blasphemous to Islam? Certainly non-Muslims could not make such a determination satisfactory to Islam, so that a mullah, either a foreign mullah or a mullah in an agency of the United States Justice or State Department would have to determine whether an American citizen’s speech in the form of a movie or a writing or even an overheard statement of opinion was blasphemy.

    In this country, we have (had to) tolerate a lot of speech that many people consider less than desirable: the immersion of Christian religious objects in urine as art; graphic sexual acts in magazines, movies, on the internet, that many people consider obscene; the march of Nazis in Jewish neighborhoods. Strangely, I have not seen any riots over any of these blasphemies, obscenities and provocations, but would that restraint continue after reining in freedom of speech for the sensitivities of one group? After imposing one legal control on freedom of speech in reaction to violence, albeit foreign, would others peacefully accept the insults to their beliefs? Unfortunately, look around: more and more interest groups are already slowly carving out mechanisms to control the speech of others with hate crime penalties and “behavior” codes on state university campuses. And it all generally starts with what most of us consider the reprehensible use of freedom of speech. But as the government control of “offensive” speech proliferates, will any of us be confident about what we can and cannot say, about expressing our own opinions?

    The ideal response to offensive speech in a free society is to counter it with one’s own arguments that are not in the form of a fist, knife or gun. Absent that, there are the private actions of boycott, social ostracism, or simply ignoring the offensive speech so as not to show any sign of support. Such responses are freedom of speech, too. Yes, words and pictures — freedom of speech — can hurt and hurt deeply, but to borrow a saying, “speech doesn’t kill people, people kill people.” With respect to the producers of this blasphemous movie (assuming it is blasphemous), the cause of the attacks is still intolerant Islamo-Fascism and the people responsible for the attacks are Islamo-Fascist thugs who do not hesitate to use violence to force the conformity of others to their beliefs. (Please note: modifiers are what they do, so when I modify Islam with the term Islamo-Fascist, I am not indicting all of Islam or all Muslims but only a portion of it. Trying to characterize it as anything else is either pure ignorance or deliberate intellectual dishonesty.)

    We have every right to defend ourselves against these attacks without apology. It is one thing to state that we do not agree with somebody’s statement, but to obsess with apology for the free speech of American citizens while we are being attacked is foolish, counter-productive and just plays into the hands of the true bigots who attack with fists, knives, guns and other actual violence. While it is understandable that in the face of these horrific attacks one would ask whether our government can do anything about this kind of movie (or book, or public oration, or whispered opinion), the answer, in this country and under our constitution, is and should be “NO”. Appeasing the Islamo-Fascists with the erosion of our First Amendment freedom of speech rights by government censorship will not end their violence against the United States; they will always find pretexts for further acts of intimidation. Instead, our response to the attacks should be to resolutely strike at — and eliminate — those orchestrating these attacks. Bottom line: the war on terror is real, it is continuing, and it will continue for a long time; we grow tired of it and let down our guard at our peril.

  • Judith

    Perhaps
    Mr Murray will give us examples where Islamic incursion (peaceful or otherwise)
    has been defeated, and please leave the Spanish example out (too many ill
    fittings). Islam always wins in the end.

  • Edward

    Try and build a church in Saudi Arabia and see what happens, yet we do not even seem to have the backbone to defend free speech against the same kind of oppression in our own country.

  • Keith

    Sorry Mr Murray but you are talking nonsense. The fact is that the waves are not continuing to roar in. The broadcast has been cancelled. The Islamo-Fascists have won for today, and that is the best evidence of who will win tomorrow.

  • oocares

    Stop making comments here and complain to Channel 4 about this!

  • Passerby

    I was going to say: just put the whole Tom-Holland-documentary on youtube and call it “the documentary Muslims have successfully banned in Britain” and it’ll go viral.

    But after what has happened in Benghazi and Egypt because of an entirely different youtube-clip I am not so sure anymore. They really do murder people there. And they really do demand “respect” here. What an effing mess.

  • Steve

    Indeed…and this is no longer comparable with the Christian fetish for burning heretics at the stake. At least then people could move on. It was the persecution of religious Oddballs in Europe which created America. Now we have global citizenship the opportunities for global fascism are ever present.

  • http://twitter.com/krakul19 sinbad king

    the first programme was totally bland basically how many ways do you say we dont know anything

  • Eddie

    I do so hope that the police pursue those who sent threatening tweets to Mr Holland with as much vigour as they have pursued those who have sent abusive and threatening messages to others.
    Channel 4 has already broadcast this documentary – which was calm, academic, ever so dull, but also informative – and which backed up its assertions with real evidence (eg that Mohammed does not appear on any coin until well after the Arab conquest of the middle east.
    Of course, some Muslims will be offended by the truth – just like some Creationist flatearthers are offended by the fact of evolution – all the more important to keep showing programmes like this then! Shame of Channel 4 and the gutless BBC – when will someone with a bit of backbone take charge there and take on these Mullah-bullies? Would the same oversensitivity be shown to white non-religious fantasists and bigots? Howabout banning every programme that shows the prophet Hitler in a bad light then eh?
    We need to defend our values – and to do anything else betrays us all, including Muslims in the West.

  • Derek Sennen

    Let us go along with this. Completely erase all mention of the one true religion. Never on the news, Never in a paper. Nothing. No news about any country within that domain. Nada. Then none will take offence. And we can think about other things.

  • Sense of Perspective Please!

    Saw the documentary – it was good. I thought he was “quite kind, or balanced” considering the lack of evidence to support Islam. However, the people who complained have not prevented the screening. Channel 4 have prevented the repeated television broadcast. Shame on channel 4!! In the meantime – everyone who wants can go and watch it on-line.

  • anyfool

    This is the biggest load of bull ever spouted on this blog, they have won completely not a photo finish but a comprehensive rout of the western way of life.
    The sheer cowardice of the ruling elite and the organs of state pandering to these people is beyond belief.
    These people will not stop on the borders of the ghettos where they currently reside they will constantly encroach on other ways of life until it overwhelms any vestige of decency and independence of thought.
    This will happen when you get someone supposedly there to defend the basic principles of our society stating ” Channel 4 cancels Tom Holland’s history of Islam, but the extremists will not win.
    Yes they will because they do not care a fig about anything that is not in the interest and advancement of Islam and the feeble response of Mr Murray is a disgrace from someone in the upper echelons of the mainstream media, yes our children will not only have to pay off our debts but also fight our battles for us, disgraceful conduct is now the way of life, another by product of New Labour

    • http://www.facebook.com/josh.russell.92505 Josh Russell

      May I remind you that you actually know nothing about ‘these people’ that you haven’t read in a tabloid newspaper or on the internet? The fact is that, like most of us, your idea of Islam comes from the reports that the media think are most gripping. In recent years that has involved violence. But that doesn’t make it true, anymore than reporting on the IRA meant all Catholics are inherently bomb makers. When we’re talking about the crumbling of independent thought, maybe you should have a long hard think about how original and independent your own thoughts are.

      • anyfool

        May i remind you you know nothing of me, i have not read many tabloids recently but in all papers there is some truth some lies, i have spent years working abroad so have some local knowledge of the middle east, in fact that is where i had my eyes opened to some of the disgusting attitudes and practices of your lovely friends, where did your ideas come from delivering pizza and kebabs, surely you must have listened to the media or are you deaf to anyone else that does not fit your mindset.

      • anyfool

        May i remind you you know nothing of me, i have not read many tabloids recently but in all papers there is some truth some lies, i have spent years working abroad so have some local knowledge of the middle east, in fact that is where i had my eyes opened to some of the disgusting attitudes and practices of your lovely friends, where did your ideas come from delivering pizza and kebabs, surely you must have listened to the media or are you deaf to anyone else that does not fit your mindset.

      • anyfool

        May i remind you you know nothing of me, i have not read many tabloids recently but in all papers there is some truth some lies, i have spent years working abroad so have some local knowledge of the middle east, in fact that is where i had my eyes opened to some of the disgusting attitudes and practices of your lovely friends, where did your ideas come from delivering pizza and kebabs, surely you must have listened to the media or are you deaf to anyone else that does not fit your mindset.

      • Ryan Griffin

        Then all these moderate Muslims need to speak out against extremism and issue fatwas against such behavior. Will this happen? I doubt it.

      • Ryan Griffin

        Then all these moderate Muslims need to speak out against extremism and issue fatwas against such behavior. Will this happen? I doubt it.

      • Ryan Griffin

        Then all these moderate Muslims need to speak out against extremism and issue fatwas against such behavior. Will this happen? I doubt it.

      • mightymark

        The unliklihood that Spectator posters read tabloids (saying nothing about what “broadsheets” they read mind you!) suggests that it is your views which are know nothing and kneejerk.

      • Eddie

        Yes, but the ‘few bad apples’ theory won’t really wash, swill it? Not when 15% of British Muslims thought the 7/7 bombers did ‘ a good thing’ and over 40% of British Muslims understand what they did. The problem is with Islam and the version promoted in mosques using Saudi money – the problem is NOT with the West or people’s understanding of Islam. I think you’re the one who’s been swallowing progaganda hook like and sinker mate: you seem like a ‘useful idiot’ (as the Soviets used to say).
        In my experience the media is too over-sensitive and afraid to tell the truth about Islam: ie that it is the fascism of now and a huge number of Muslims in the West want to drag us back to the dark ages (some Islamic sharia-ruled theocracy).

      • T. Botham

        Where does your knowledge of Islam come from? The broadsheet apologists? If from the same Islamic sources as those who are rioting and killing in defense of it – millions of muslims globally – then you should not need to think too hard about what Islam requires its people to do, both peacefully and violently. Some intellectual muslims and their western supporters argue that millions of Muslims get the tabloid version of Islam from Friday pulpits or the professional rabble-rousers (Al Qaida et al) – and it is this tabloid spin that incites hysterical and murderous offense at non-Islamic opinion. But that approach – some muslims know more about the true Islam that others and are the true muslims – would entail taking sides in a doctrinal interpretation dispute. Until we see the jihad-is-an-internal-mental-struggle muslims swarming the streets and American embassies to counter the jihad-is-a-duty-to-promote-cultural-and-military-domination muslims, I see no reason to hold the former as typical of muslims. Stay-at-home muslims too, cannot be assumed not to be practicing Islam according to the Islamic cultural norms of their locale of origin, with all that entails for peaceful coexistence, for their women and for apostates. Sure, there are western muslims whose women are not veiled, who regard the end of ramadan feast as a social event to rival Christmas as a nice gift-giving, shopping and entertainment opportunity, who seize upon Islamophobia as a key to gain the political rewards of victim status, who see in the Koran a lefty goody-bag of feminism, socialism, environmentalism, pacifism and human-rights. They are to be found at the sides of presidents and whispering in the ear of secretaries of state. They are not representatives of muslims, they are spokespersons for them, speaking what the politicians want to hear.

        You think you are preserving decency by wagging a finger at generalizations, but Islam is one of the great generalizers – a totalitarianism that is more threatening today than any other (but abetted by them).

      • Nicholas

        Keep apologising for and excusing the terror Josh. Yeah, all those acts of islamic terrorism since the 1960s are just made up. As Ryan Griffin says where are all the muslim crowds protesting against the acts of violence committed in the name of their god?

        • Katie Shapland

          Ah, Nicholas… the inexcusable silence of the Muslim (supposedly moderate) majority. On this we agree.

    • http://www.facebook.com/josh.russell.92505 Josh Russell

      May I remind you that you actually know nothing about ‘these people’ that you haven’t read in a tabloid newspaper or on the internet? The fact is that, like most of us, your idea of Islam comes from the reports that the media think are most gripping. In recent years that has involved violence. But that doesn’t make it true, anymore than reporting on the IRA meant all Catholics are inherently bomb makers. When we’re talking about the crumbling of independent thought, maybe you should have a long hard think about how original and independent your own thoughts are.

  • Scipio Aemilianus

    Is it not time for a threat in return? “Any more nonsense from your lot and Mecca gets nuked”.

  • http://twitter.com/JunkkMale Peter Martin

    ‘4’ in Chinese sounds a bit like ‘death, so maybe can cause ‘issues’ with about 1/10th the planet’s population?
    Once you open a Pandora’s Precedent, amazing what else may pop out the box.

    Just sayin’. The reaction of certain ‘professional’, ‘impartial’ other media will be a hoot.For a start the blogs of half the MSM will be closing down.But the extremists will… er.. not have won.

  • Paul

    I’m missing something here – the extremists have won and will continue to win as long as people/organisations give way. Islam/Islamists will tolerate no examination of their religion/beliefs.

    • Eddie

      Exactly. I look forward to a programme on the rise os Islamism which shows such things as the Mohammed cartoons in order to educate and inform the viewer: that is in no way inciting hatred in any way.
      But who will have the guts? The BBC – a place run by a politically correct elite which despises the general public and girly gutless TV producers? No – the only place to look for anything with guts is the internet really.
      If the Nazis arose today then the BBC would be pandering to them too, I am sure, refusing to show anything that offended our ‘diverse and vibrant’ friends…

      • jason404

        Look what happened to Theo van Gogh in the Netherlands. It’s difficult dealing with people who feel that it is more important to please the god of their Bedouin cult than act within national laws.

        • Eddie

          But if everyone had the guts to take them on, then the few who do now wouldn’t be so isolated and such easy targets (and usually condemned sniffily as racists and bigots by the socalled ‘liberal elite’). The Islamists hate all of us anyway, including Muslims who want to integrate – and every time a hypocrite liberal panders to some Jihadist, they betray those Muslims.
          If the BBC and the media can’t defend our values, then what is the point of them exactly?
          NO over-sensitivity should be shown to Muslims or any religious group. Sadly, in the last 20 years or so (arguably since the state pandered to Muslims re the Salman Rushdie protests in which not one Muslims was even arrested for threatening death and torture to a British citizen because of his beliefs), the state and its weasels have played a perfidious game – and ultimately, it is we the people who are betrayed by them.
          Time to defend our values – and to stop appeasing Islamofascists. Mohammed was a 7th century warlord who killed people for criticising him, and who had many wives, one only 9 years old. F him and all those who her worship him like little nazis did Hitler in the 30s. And F all the leftwing politically correct ‘liberals’ who are gutless cowards and whose kowtowing to these Islamist bullies has led directly to the deaths of many, incl all those on 7/7/05 in London. F them especially.

          • Eddie

            And the BBC and Channel 4 (largely BBC funded) support positive action to get a great many ethnic persons (many of them Muslim) into training schemes – and jobs, on the sly. That is why one has to blink when one sees a white male newsreader on the news – there is massive sex and race discrimination against younger white men trying to build their careers who can’t get the breaks because of all the pity party victims (often rich and privately educated) being leapfrogged over them. Muslims are maybe 3% of the UK population. I think it’s about 10% at the BBC and Channel 4.
            And the BBC even supports a Muslim-only writing prize!
            How about starting an atheist-only writing prize? Or a white-only one? Or a male-only one? Just for the sake of fairness eh…
            And I HATE the way the BBC newsreaders have been told always to refer to that 7th century Warlord (and proven murderer and rapist and paedophile) Mohammed as ‘THE PROPHET MOHAMMED’ as though that were a fact! It’s just kowtowing to anyone with a dark skin and a religion (esp those with a record of bombing and killing people who dare criticise Islam) – an attitude that would certainly not be extended to white non-religious persons who held similat extreme views.
            Ergo, the BBC is racist.
            F them! (Though they seems to be doing rather a good job of that themselves, as the directionless Leviathon slowing collapses wheezing in a wasteland someone in the glamorous media hub of sunny Salford…

  • sir_graphus

    Given that a man who makes a joke on Twitter about blowing an airport “sky high” ends up in court, can I take it that the police and CPS will take the same attitude towards those, here, making genuine, credible, serious threats?

  • john cronin

    How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
    The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
    A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
    Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the infence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it.
    No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.
    It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
    Winston Churchill 1899

  • MahmudH

    It’s a shame that they cancelled it due to threats, but it wasn’t a particularly good documentary. I saw it in the first showing, and I was disappointed that he reached so very few conclusions, despite having interviewees with far more interesting ideas than the ones he himself put forward.

    In particular Tom Holland interviewed Fred Donner, author of “Muhammad and the Believers” – but completely ignored Donner’s research into what the early followers of the prophet meant when they called themselves “Believers” rather than “Muslims”.

    Watching the documentary it felt like, as Holland said at the end, it was all about him coming to terms with his own uncertainty about Christianity, rather than being a genuine exploration of the origins of Islam.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Niels-Georg-Bach-Christensen/100001693821936 Niels Georg Bach Christensen

      Holland could have made a point in contrasting different viewpoints, but Donner’s book isn’t the truth either. It has been heavily criticized. Holland chose one narrative point of departure, his choice.

      • MahmudH

        Just because something is criticised, doesn’t necessarily mean it is not true. But anyway, if he interviewed these people and included them in the documentary, he ought to have make some attempt to mention their perspectives when it is so closely related to what he is saying. Donner’s arguments make a lot of logical sense to me.

  • Sarah

    I’m constantly reading female journalists and bloggers saying that they face a barrage of threats (inevitably sexual ones) on a regular basis, just for writing. They don’t even report them to the police, let alone cave in to them. Anita Sarkeesian has recieved direct threats on her life, has been threatened with gang rape 1000s of times, had a violent game made about her, one of her supporters recieved a photo of her flat along with a threat that she had better always watch out because she could be raped any time. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has bodyguards to protect her life against Islamic extremists who killed her friend. These women don’t run away or stop. I think it’s time for the men to show similar courage, there is no shortage of people saying it’s legitimate to criticise Islam, far fewer actually prepared to do it. You can’t beat dangerous people without being willing to face down threats or to even come off badly from it.

    • Eddie

      Errr…Ayaan Hirsi Ali ran away to the USA, dear, and married a millionaire.
      I think you’ll find the only people willing to stand up to extremist Islamists (including the women who are its backbone) are men.
      Time for Muslim women to…er…man up, maybe – which is difficult of course when so many liberal politically correct women are pandering to burkah babes…
      Channel 4 is run like the BBC (which part funds it) by politically correct men and lots and lots of women too (most TV is aimed at women and most producers are women too). Yet again Sarah you prove your utter ignorance and bigotry against all non-women in the world. Sad.

      • Daniel Maris

        Wrong – Ayaan continues to speak the truth about Islam and is still a real target. She is extremely brave.

        • Eddie

          Yes, but my point was to argue with the well known manhating loon Sarah who is arguing that only women take on Islamists and that men do not. Utter lie.
          Many men pay with their lives to fight Islamic extremists – overseas too. And in Europe.
          But Ali did go to the USA and marry a millionaire. I did not say she was not brave – I actually admire her. But those misandrists who try and use every issue to disparage men – the evil ones – and praise women (all so brave and wunnerful and never oppressive or supportive of Islamism, oh no…) are sexist morons – and I say so.
          What about all the brave men and women fighting the oppression of Muslim women and men in Europe? It would be better if such people stayed here really.

          • Katie Shapland

            Just a pity you brought the very brave Ayaan into it, Eddie. If only there were more Muslim-born women like her. She’s now an atheist. What’s wrong with marrying a millionaire, anyway, or are such people automatically undeserving of love?

            • Eddie

              Reread the posts Katie – it was not I who first brought Ayaan into it at all.
              I do wish more Muslim and other women would stand up against Islam though. Where are the voices from all of Europe’s Muslims speaking against Islamic terrorism or backwards ways (inlcuding the oppression of women). Fact is, at home Muslim culture is very matriarchal and it is the women themselves who promote Islamic extremism and forcing girls to be circumcised, wear burkasa nd veils etc. (The men tend to be less religious then the women too). That is the she elephant in the room…

      • Daniel Maris

        Wrong – Ayaan continues to speak the truth about Islam and is still a real target. She is extremely brave.

      • Daniel Maris

        Wrong – Ayaan continues to speak the truth about Islam and is still a real target. She is extremely brave.

      • diorameks

        a man with a gender based persecution complex?

        • Eddie

          Errr…No. A man who recognises obsessive sexism and misandry from the manhater poster extraordinaire – Sarah the saddo.
          Her thesis is that only women are fighting Islamism and all men are cowards and are not. Do you agree?
          Most of those killed in Afghanistan are men, of course – fighting the Taliban. And most who stand up against Islamism in the UK are, I notice, men too. VERY few women do – women tend to avoid confrontation, fit in , not take risks, and women are also more religious too – so most Muslim women defend their religion and culture (the women are always more extreme than the men).

      • Trofim

        “Ayaan Hirsi Ali ran away to the USA”

        You mean she opted to stay alive instead of being murdered?

        The coward! You wouldn’t get us doing that, would you.

        • Eddie

          My point was that the original poster ws a sexist manhating look who writes moronic misandrist crap like this:
          ‘These women don’t run away or stop. I think it’s time for the men to show similar courage, there is no shortage of people saying it’s legitimate to criticise Islam, far fewer actually prepared to do it.’
          I admire Ayaan Nirsi Ali – but one suspects the original poster would not be praising her if she were an awaful man (because all men are useless cowards in her eyes, you see).
          I do think it would be better if people like her staye din Europe and fought it here – not in the US where radical Islamists are not a real and present issue in its cities (they have Hispanic invasions to worry about there…and their Muslims are much fewer and more educated/middle class than ours).
          If Islam changes it will be through force – via brave men standing up to others, male and female, who want Islam to remain in the dark ages.
          It’s always a shame how very few women stand up to Islam and just take orders from (usually) the women who run their homes to wear a burkha or hijab, for example.

      • Malfleur

        The English Defence League is having a go at standing up; and from what I can see is in consequence being hounded by a concerted effort of the political class in cahoots with the islamo-fascist leftist alliance to denigrate and destroy them; but of course EDL members are only working class blokes, no one gives a stuff if their rights, persons or livelihood are abused, correct? Why your own editor once wrote…. and see Jake Wallis Simons’ snide and irresponsible polemic from the same stable of the twin Channel Island hide-away prats:

        http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jakewallissimons/100180786/is-the-edls-tommy-robinson-heading-for-a-breakdown/

  • Barry

    “But as I said before, those who are trying to stop this debate — even if
    they succeed for a short time — will lose in the long term.”

    In the long term? That’s exactly how they will win. It’s a battle of attrition and we give way every time. Nobody has ever had the guts to say “fit in or get out”.

    • Guest

      It’s not just “fit in or get out”, it’s “tolerate or get out”. (Or maybe, “Don’t be a dick, or get out”?)

      • SirMortimerPosh

        Or be like us and you’re welcome; try to re-create the hole in the ground you came from and you’ll be deported, but of course, we won’t do that, because the country has become spineless.

    • Just Bob

      I prefer the acronym FIFO – Fit In or F**** Off.

      • Katie Shapland

        Just Bob, I’m confused by your four ‘*’. I can work out three, but four…?

    • http://www.facebook.com/josh.russell.92505 Josh Russell

      Personally I prefer muslims. They’re quiet and don’t get in my way. So they fit in pretty well. It’s the drunk loudmouths and violent idiots that I have a problem with. Can I just tell them to “get out”?

      • AY

        if you prefer muslims then what is the problem, convert to islam.
        won’t be huge loss to humanity.

        • Hasbara spotter

          How’s the weather in Tel Aviv, Zionazi?

      • Trofim

        Muslims? Quiet? Somehow the two don’t seem to go together.

        • Mohammed the Meek

          Shhhhh! I’m trying to be QUIET here.
          Now where did I put that weed killer…

          • Mohammed the Meek

            Dammit – now I’ve lost count and I’ll have to start all over again – weighing the fertiliser, counting the rucksacks.
            Damn kaffir infidels. Why can’t the slags just shut up?

          • Mohammed the Meek

            Dammit – now I’ve lost count and I’ll have to start all over again – weighing the fertiliser, counting the rucksacks.
            Damn kaffir infidels. Why can’t the slags just shut up?

      • SirMortimerPosh

        Well – yes – plenty are, and yes – drunken loud mouths are scum, but there are problems arising in areas of this country where Muslims live in numbers that are a rank disgrace. They are not the only disgrace in the country, but that doesn’t mean we have to allow them to change the country and our way of life – and that includes being able to say what you think.

      • Daniel Maris

        Quiet? Have you looked at the prison population figures?

        In France an incredible 55% of the prison population is Muslim. In the UK it is about 11% – about 2 or 3 times more than the figure one would expect in terms of the proportion of the population.

      • Eddie

        Yes, I was just about to say how quiet the Muslims are. I mean, all those Muslim countries in the world are just so peaceful and quiet, like a beared and circumcised version of Frinton-on-Sea, with no loudmouths or conflict at all, and no-one getting in anyone else’s way.
        All those bangs and explosions I see on my TV screen from every flipping Muslim country in the world must just be their ‘Festival of Quietness’ in which they celebrate not being drunken loudmouths, which of course all non-Muslims and white British people especially are.
        PS Are you Yasmin Alibooboo-Braun?
        PPS If it’s just alcohol you disapprove of, then you could always become a Quaker or a Mooman, and move to Salt Lake City.

      • http://twitter.com/Anatoli_McGrath Shane Mullan

        So you agree with so called honour killings, forced genital mutilitation of babies and young girls, forced marraige, forced marraige of 12 yr old girls pedophilia, grooming and raping of vunerable young white girls from “care homes” pedophilia again, raping of girls and women because tbey won’t cover themselves with those stupid evil burkas and hijabs, killing anyone who departs from their warped principals. But all that is ok! Cause you find them quiet? You don’t do a lot of thinking do you? Give me a loudmouth who does none of this anyday.

  • John Cronin

    “The extremists will not win”: wish I could share your confidence, mate: they seem to be winning quite effectively: demographically apart from anything else. ALL believing Moslems who take their religion half seriously are, by definition, extremists: Read “The Sword of the Prophet” by Serge Trifcovic: Mohammed was basically L Ron Hubbard with an army.

    • WTF

      You’ve obviously not checked out the Jewish Talmud.

    • WTF

      You’ve obviously not checked out the Jewish Talmud.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2FI6O6Q7XPG6KCIUFIPXMYDCZ4 john

      There is no such thing as ‘islamic extremists’. It is a figment of the west’s imagination, because the reality is too awful to contemplate. They are doing nothing extreme; they are simply carrying out normal, acceptable everyday Islam, as laid out in the Koran, Sunna and shari’ah law. And that means war against unbelievers on every level.

      • Chris

        Another idiot has found the internet. There should be a mandatory IQ test before people are allowed online 😉

        • Nicholas

          Don’t be so self-effacing Chris. You did well to find the internet and you don’t need a mandatory IQ – we can see you are stupid.

  • Daniel Maris

    The proper response to such threats is for ALL channels in our democracy to broadcast programme. Sadly, no chance of that.

    Meanwhile, Channel 4, Mr Holland (who must know what he is dealing with since he has studied it) have bowed to violent totalitarianism and have to live with that.

    Now – can we expect prosecutions to follow?

    • James R

      Can’t seem to find anything about this on the BBC website.Perhaps they don’t consider this news.
      If the EDL for example,had forced the cancellation of a similar documentary about Christianity,the BBC would have been all over it like a cheap suit.
      Perhaps they’ll cover the story on tonights news ? Suitably outraged of course.

      • Daniel Maris

        Even they – against their best judgement no doubt – have to report the murder of an American Ambassador. There’s only so much news suppression a news organisation can go in for.

      • Daniel Maris

        Even they – against their best judgement no doubt – have to report the murder of an American Ambassador. There’s only so much news suppression a news organisation can go in for.

      • Daniel Maris

        Even they – against their best judgement no doubt – have to report the murder of an American Ambassador. There’s only so much news suppression a news organisation can go in for.

  • AY

    I personally have zero interest in this “Crap:Untold Story”, and wouldn’t watch it anyway.

    the only thing islam deserves is – boycott.

    • Daniel Maris

      It was a pathetic attempt to discuss some of Islam’s origins whilst tying itself in knots in an effort not to offend. Much good it did them.

      I didn’t agree with the central premise – that the stories about Mohammed were made up…the best attested ones have the clear ring of truth I think and Holland’s thesis let Mo off the hook. HOwever, Holland should be able to put his thesis without threat of death.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2FI6O6Q7XPG6KCIUFIPXMYDCZ4 john

        I agree the programme was weak and stunk of hand-ringing. But it was really only meant to say one thing, and that was “islam can go under the microscope like everything else” rather than be an attempt at a definitive history.

    • Barry

      Boycott what exactly? How do you boycott people who don’t integrate anyway?

      • AY

        they do integrate into benefits system, and try (succesfully) to “integrate” into every government institution imposing their rules, prayer rooms and all that jazz.
        one should boycott their demands of privileges and preferential rights.

        • WTF

          Like telling them that circumcision of babies is a crime?

          • AY

            like telling that they can’t practice sharia in the West, and their requests for entitlements are ignored.

            • WTF

              I am west European and have noticed that virtually no one has a clue about Sharia Law. Some aspects are actually very good, like the family of a criminal helping a victim. Those close to a murder victim decide whether or not a murderer is executed (I know a brit widow who gave the thumbs down) There is very little crime in Muslim countries so Sharia basically works. It’s actually what a lot of brits themselves advocate!

              • Trofim

                “There is very little crime in Muslim countries so Sharia basically works”.

                What a classic example of a fallacy. I shall quote and requote it. It should be used in elementary logic courses.
                There was less crime in the USSR. (I lived there). There was less crime in the Third Reich. Guess why? Less freedom leads to a diminution in crime. If every human in the UK was locked in a cage overnight, to which only one person had a key, guess how much crime there would be during those hours? Zilch. If women were banned from being outside the house during the hours of darkness the rape figures would plummet. If a general curfew were instituted during the hours of darkness crime in general would plummet. Ban alcohol – crime would plummet. Muslims are happy to trade off freedom for security. People attracted to authoritarianism are willing to do that.
                “It’s [shaharia law] actually what a lot of brits themselves advocate!” Yeah – some of the Muslim ones, that’s around 1.5-2% of the population. That’s lot and lots.

              • Nicholas

                You are something else as well as west European.

                • Katie Shapland

                  Nicholas – WTF is most likely a Muslim, as I am sure you are suggesting. West European? Who knows.

                  Btw, I should be interested to read your posting history. Any particular reason for your unregistered status? Shy perhaps?

              • Katie Shapland

                ‘There is very little crime in Muslim countries..’. You cannot be serious.

          • AY

            like telling that they can’t practice sharia in the West, and their requests for entitlements are ignored.

          • AY

            like telling that they can’t practice sharia in the West, and their requests for entitlements are ignored.

    • Glynn

      Of those things which we cannot speak, thereof we should say nothing. Putting our heads in the sand will only make matters worse.

  • Augustus

    “The fact that extremists can stop a screening should be worrying to everybody who cares about our free societies.”
    Free societies exist for the protection of individuals, not religions and ideologies. Ronald Reagan once said: “We need to act today, to preserve tomorrow.” And that means winning back our heritage and freedoms. The moral and cultural relativism of Marxism led the West’s political and intellectual elites to adopt a utopian belief in a universal brotherhood of mankind. This culture of repudiation of our very foundations; the self-censorship of the media, the collapse of the education system, the emasculation of the Christian heritage, the subversion of the nation-state, the break-down of free society itself, weakens the West day by day. We must defend who we are and what we are against those who wish to overthrow us. Against those who want to cut us from our roots so that our civilization withers away and dies.

    • AY

      rright.
      I adore Christian heritage, but don’t like Christian clergy.
      as well as other – Hebrew, Hindu, Buddist, Aztec, Shamanic – any other clergy.

      today in the underground I saw the woman trying to read a book named “How to pray effecively”.
      what a strange marriage of worst with worst – corporate speak, with religious idiocy.
      c’mon, there is no need in either.

      let us face it – religion is the matter of the past, human development surpassed it
      (islam included – but unfortunately islam isn’t only a religion).

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002326933980 Michael MacConnell

        Dear Atheist leftist moron,

        Your ilk chose to attach yourselves to the Islamists back when you thought that by kissing up to them and decrying western conservatives and Christians, you would be eaten last.

        Reap what you’ve sown.

        • Andy S

          Why would Atheists attach themselves to a religious organization? The clue is in the name.

        • http://www.facebook.com/josh.russell.92505 Josh Russell

          Maybe we did it just because we were tired of being associated with vile idiots like yourself.

          • Nicholas

            What a monumentally pathetic comment. You associate yourself with and apologise for vile idiots who oppress women and hang gays and worse because you are “uncomfortable” with other people who just disagree with your vile left wing politics. It says it all. Still, I suppose it explains why you would want to destroy your own country to “rub the right’s nose in diversity”. I wonder if vile idiots like you ever realise, deep in your hearts, just how tediously predictable you are in your double standards, hypocrisy and selective memory.

            • Katie Shapland

              Nicholas – you find Josh’s post ‘monumentally pathetic’ and yet are silent on the highly intelligent ‘Dear Atheist leftist moron’ post that he was responding to?

              • Nicholas

                That’s free will. It means I can choose what to respond to and what not to respond to. That might mean something – or nothing. In this particular case I responded to what I believe represents the most dangerous – and vile – attitude. The so-called Arab Spring was like a mighty wave with a lot of people riding surfboards on it. The Western media saw only liberal democrats yearning for democracy. But the guys who arrived on the beach were by and large islamists who have replaced the dictatorship of a single dynasty with the dictatorship of theocracy. That can be debated over ad nauseum. But Josh Russell’s comment was replete with presumptive malevolence and perversity. The type of clown who worries more about what people think than what people do. So he rejects being associated with vile idiots who express themselves in ways some consider “islamophobic” (the fear of islam is real and warranted!) and prefers instead to associate himself with vile idiots who behead innocent people on video, fly aircraft full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people and blow up themselves and bus/trainloads of innocent people. He is a meme for Western stupidity and fickleness, for wrong headed morality, for the own goal, for self-destruction. His comment angered me and I responded. Free will. Idiots like Josh Russell will eventually contribute to death of free will.

                • Katie Shapland

                  A particularly powerful and eloquent, post, Nicholas. I thank you for responding to me so thoughtfully. In relation to the first two lines of your post, wherein lies the answer to my specific question/challenge – yes, you are right about your free will; and yes, it does mean something, much more than something.

                • Katie Shapland

                  A particularly powerful and eloquent, post, Nicholas. I thank you for responding to me so thoughtfully. In relation to the first two lines of your post, wherein lies the answer to my specific question/challenge – yes, you are right about your free will; and yes, it does mean something, much more than something.

        • Katie Shapland

          Michael – I’m an atheist. I supported (and still do) the Arab Spring, if that’s what you mean by ‘attaching yourselves to the Islamists’. I am not a leftist. Where does that place me on your self-devised ‘moronic’ scale?

  • Sarah

    I thought the British didn’t negotiate with terrorists and hostage takers.

    If you want to beat bullies, you have to willing to take them on.

    • WTF

      Yes, time to tackle Israel.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        What, isn’t the entire Islamic world enough to take them on? Oh no – I forgot – everytime they launch an attack they get whupped.

        • Andy S

          Something to do with the state of the art weaponry the US unquestioningly provides them with, I think.

          • Trofim

            Something to do with the fact that the Jews are an intelligent, resourceful people used to having their backs to the wall. Ashkenazi Jews have on average IQ’s about 10 points higher than the average European, don’t they? Look at the proportion of nobel prizes won by Jews compared to Muslims. Read “Islamic Failure” by Pervez Hoodbhoy. Ever heard of an illiterate Jew?

            • Goy

              Yes, we know you have a superiority complex and think you are God’s Chosen Uebermenschen. That is what is the real problem.

              • Trofim

                What a peculiar thing to say! And I’m not even Jewish!

                • Goy

                  You are a Lying Hasbara Goon.

                • Trofim

                  I know what lying means, being a speaker of English, but can anyone tell me what a Hasbara Goon is?

                • Guest

                  No idea, just ignore the pro-islamist nutters, you get bile from them from time-to-time when you post sensible and accurate comments.

            • Lindum

              This is because a most moslims have been marrying there cousins for over a thousand years – not good for IQ – or interestingly impulse control – which could explain all the violence.

          • Trofim

            Something to do with the fact that the Jews are an intelligent, resourceful people used to having their backs to the wall. Ashkenazi Jews have on average IQ’s about 10 points higher than the average European, don’t they? Look at the proportion of nobel prizes won by Jews compared to Muslims. Read “Islamic Failure” by Pervez Hoodbhoy. Ever heard of an illiterate Jew?

          • Trofim

            Something to do with the fact that the Jews are an intelligent, resourceful people used to having their backs to the wall. Ashkenazi Jews have on average IQ’s about 10 points higher than the average European, don’t they? Look at the proportion of nobel prizes won by Jews compared to Muslims. Read “Islamic Failure” by Pervez Hoodbhoy. Ever heard of an illiterate Jew?

    • Hexhamgeezer

      Well said.

    • Barry

      “If you want to beat bullies, you have to willing to take them on”

      And our first big challenge in recent times – The Satanic Verses. Our capitulation would have made Neville Chamberlain wince. It’s been downhill ever since.

    • Eddie

      Every government negotiates with terrorists and hostage takers. Didn’t you even know that?
      In the case of the USA, the government supported the terrorists and hostage takers, with millions given to the IRA by those who supported murder of innocents, like the Kennedy rapist clan.

      • Katie Shapland

        Eddie – Some Americans of Irish heritage supported the IRA; the government of the USA did not. Tossing in ‘Kennedy rapist clan’ presumably as an attempt to obscure the difference is disingenuous.

        • Eddie

          Nonsense. There was support from the US government for the IRA, though not officially (but harbouring known terrorists and allowing terrorists to fundraise in the US is support, non?) – because both they and the American people wrongly and stupidly always thought the British were in Ireland against the will of the people there. Most Americans have always been utterly ignorant about it.
          And Noraid was supported by Edward Kennedy, who praised them and refused to applaud Mrs Thatcher when she visited Congress. He was praised when he died in 2009 as a great Democrat – the man supported and fund-raised for the IRA which targeted and murdered innocent men, women and children in Ireland, Britain and elsewhere. I hope he rots in hell.
          As for the rapist tage. Well, would anyone seriously defend the sexual skullduggery of the Kennedys? How many girls was secretly silenced eh?

          • Katie Shapland

            Eddie – please enlighten us: which known IRA terrorists did the US government (not any individual person) harbour, and which known IRA terrorists did it allow to fundraise?

            It’s Saturday night, here. I may reply to the rest of your post later. For now I must go… dancing.

            • Eddie

              Just Google ‘Noraid’. Just do a tiny tiddle of research online and you will find what you are looking for.
              The US harboured IRA terrorists.
              Probably, the US media never lets you know all this – for the USA to support terrorism while at the same time saying just how dread it is, is a circle that is hard to square.
              Monsieur Ponsonby is correct: your version smacks of Hollywood rewrites. Other examples incluse the one in which the US single-handedly abolished slavery (errrr 60 years after the Brits with racial laws not abolished until the 1970s); the way the US single-handedly won the second world war (depsite not joining in until over 2 years after Britian had saved the world’s arse by standing alone against Hitler); the way Americans invented everything (despite such things as the lighbulb, TV, and even early aeroplanes being invented by Brits).

              • Katie Shapland

                Eddie – I know about Noraid you patronising little twerp. Who doesn’t? As the Department of Justice took action against the organisation – as far as it was able in the liberal democracy that is the USA – are you seriously putting forward Noraid as your case for the US government supposedly harbouring and supporting known IRA terrorists?

                As for the rest of the trendy anti-US twaddle you’ve included in this post…

                • Nicholas

                  It isn’t really trendy anti-US twaddle though because a lot of the US-generated Anglophobe myths are picked up and run with by left-wing, self-hating trendies here. Our race relations industry wholly ignores the reality of British race relations history for the US experience and transposes it here. So the progressive British relationships with native American tribes and liberated slaves are ignored, deliberately or otherwise. Anyone listening to current BBC-Leftist propaganda might think we had racial segregation here until 1997.

                  Then there is the Mel Gibson/Hollywood Anglophobe distortion of history where the English establishment are always the villains and the token Englishman in US films is almost always a villain. It’s actually very offensive because it is so relentless. But look on the bright side, the English don’t race off in a mob and sack your embassy every time The Patriot is screened.

                  Besides, we do it ourselves. The current BBC drama “Parade’s End” is stuffed full of political correctness and ghastly, modern interpretative and politically exploitative caricatures of the British officer class and aristocracy during our Great War. In the main courageous and selfless young men whose boots the vast majority of BBC producers are not fit to lick but whose sacrifices created the comfortable, privileged, champagne socialist, bien pensant world they now enjoy. The arrogant, dinner party aristocracy of flippant and cruel banter that they like to lampoon are actually more like themselves in a mirror. Their cynicism prevents the depiction of any noble, truly heroic thing, of duty, self-sacrifice, true comradeship, under-statement and compassion.

                • Katie Shapland

                  Nicholas – I am not American, if that is want you assume, with your reference to my embassy. As an Australian, I do not see the negative depiction of the English in US films that you seem to see. However, I shall ponder this in future viewings.

                  If you’re talking about Braveheart in relation to Mel Gibson, I haven’t seen the film (too gory for me), though I know the (historical) story. Regrettably, Mel Gibson is one of my mob. If anti-English, he is also an anti-Jewish, or so it would seem from some of his rants. I doubt, however, that he speaks for the US government, which is where all this started – accusations against the US government(s), not individual film-makers, nor even Hollywood itself.

                  We have had rioting in the streets of Sydney by the ever-so sensitive new-Age Muslim boys with their ever-so easily hurt feelings, so I appreciate the fact that the average Brit, Aussie and American can take a ribbing, even a mocking of our beliefs, without any of us storming embassies. [Thankfully, this time, the rioters were roundly condemned by the Muslim leadership in Australia. Franky, about bl**dy time!]

                  I travel a lot (particularly in Asia) with my work and so am often dependent on BBC World (in my brief free moments) to keep me informed. I am as disappointed in the bias and political correctness of the BBC as I am in our own ABC. I do not know of ‘Parade’s End’ but I can imagine that I would agree with your view.

                • Nicholas

                  I am sorry for my presumption that you were American. Braveheart appealed to Anglophobia in emergent Scots nationalists whilst The Patriot appealed to chauvinism and triumphalism in the USA but included a hefty amount of Anglophobia bordering on the cartoon.

                • Katie Shapland

                  Thank you, Nicholas, but certainly no need for an apology. I admire the American people as I do the British, so I am not offended at the mistaken identity.

                  Though not having seen it, I understood what would offend you in Braveheart. I appreciate the further information on the Patriot.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Katie, don’t waste your time with Braveheart. It is childish, ahistorical crap. I speak as a Scot (well, half).

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Katie, don’t waste your time with Braveheart. It is childish, ahistorical crap. I speak as a Scot (well, half).

                • Eddie

                  Katie – you are the twerp.
                  Do some research and read some books eh? Learn about what your government does in your name.
                  Some countries supported the IRA: the USA and Libya are two.

          • ArchiePonsonby

            Americans? Ignorant? I am shocked: shocked I tell you, that anyone should suggest such a thing!

        • ArchiePonsonby

          Oh yeah? I distinctly remember Slick Willy-Jeff Clinton glad-handing the two murderers Adams and McGuiness around Washington, New York and Boston when John Major was trying to keep a lid on the IRA’s activities! You must be from Hollywood, trying to re-write history to make America look good!

          • Katie Shapland

            Archie – first the Kennedy name and now the Clinton name. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness were the leadership of Sinn Fein and seen alongside many world leaders at the time. Just look where the world is happy to see those two charming boys now, btw.

            Would one of you lads (or you one lad, whatever), please explain why the Clinton Administration, or any US Administration would wilfully harbour and support IRA terrorists against Britain, the staunchest ally of the USA?

            What exactly was in this support of the IRA for the US government?

            • Eddie

              I mentioned the Kennedy name because that terrorist-supporter Edward (?) Kennedy who died a couple of years ago of a brain tumour was considered a hero in the US. I had to explain to my Canadian friends that actually the man was a supporter of the murder of innocent men, women and children, via his support of the IRS, and that all decent people should be dancing on the grave of the scumbag! He also refused to even stand when our Prime Minister visited the US – precisely because of his pro-IRA sympathies. Such bad manners…
              The UK may well be a US ally, but we get right royally screwed all the time because of our sychophantic politicians: look at the massive injustice and imbalance of extradition procedures these days. The US did not support us over the Falklands (it abstained) and Obama is well-known fro his anti-British stance: insulting our PM Gordon Brown by giving him a gift of DVDs (which won’t even work in the UK), making the removal of the bust of Churchill from the Whitehouse his first act as President, deliberately blaming the British for the gulf of Mexico oil spill (which was in fact the fault of the US government for rushing exploration there to get homegrown oil, and of the US company Halliburton who built the rig – badly – and Transworld, the Swiss company who ran it. BP is also 40% American, used to be Amoco. Yet it became ‘British Petroleum’ whenever that plastic black man Obama mentioned it: his instincts were actually deeply racist.
              If that’s the way they treat their friends…
              And yes, Hollywood usually casts Brits as villains and has done for years. If they used, say, black people as villains all the time, as they do Brits, then they would be called racist. Try watching some movies, Katie, now that you are aware of this trope.
              However, it’s not as bad as the racist anti-British tripe that dribbles like Deli-belly diarrhoea from that trash-factory called Bollywood… (Fortunately, I never watch that utter crap – which is just mind-morphine for Indian peasants who like sparkly things but who will all die poor and oppressed and exploited by the brown-skinned oppressors…) If we Brits protrayed brown-skinned Indians as they portray white Brits, they’d be the first to call us racist!

            • ArchiePonsonby

              Irish-Catholic votes?

    • kevinlynch

      The British always negotiate with terrorists. They just do it in private. Worked wonders in resolving the Northern Ireland problem.

  • chudsmania

    Yet again we are being lectured and threatened in our own country by the loony fringe of so called religion of peace . The political elite needs to get a grip on this , before the patience of the majority runs out and takes direct action in the UK enclaves where these nutters reside, eliminating them from our civilsed society.

    • EffOff

      LOL, you live in Israel, Hasbara Goon.

      • chudsmania

        Exeter Devon . English blood through at least 6 centuries . Goon

  • Asmodeus

    Some of the threats have been made on Twitter .Will those responsible be shortly getting a visit from the police like the young man who made comments about the football player who collapsed some months ago?.Like hell they will.

  • Douglas Carter

    I wish all these sentiments could be seen to be true.
    Let’s see how many of the usual suspects are prepared to come out of their secure sanctimony to condemn the Channel Four spinelessness?
    Jon Snow? Shami Chakrabarti? Germaine Greer? Bidesha (not sure of her surname – sorry…)? Polly Toynbee? Michael Mansfield QC? Nick Clegg even? (Yes, naturally, let’s forget Cameron..) Boris? Piers (…sound of spitting…) Morgan? Rusbridger?
    How are the mightily indignant silent now…?…

    • James R

      Channel 4 to be Re-Branded Chanel 5 say image consultants.

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