Coffee House

Political games

12 August 2012

12 August 2012

Whilst everybody is enjoying the spectacle of the greatest Games on earth there is one group of people who are doing their level best to spoil it. If there was a gold medal for petty political nitpicking up there on the podium would be the anti-independence politicians and commentators. In rhetoric reminiscent of Labour claims that devolution would kill the SNP ‘stone dead’, time and again over the last two weeks we have heard claims the SNP are opposed to Team GB and that every medal marks a death blow to Scottish independence aspirations.

They condemn the Scottish Government for wishing our Scottish athletes well. They then criticise us when a Scottish showcase is opened to fully engage with the Olympics. They scour through ten year old speeches to misquote us out of context to prove that we’re pathologically opposed to the Games. They were even quicker off the blocks than Usain Bolt. Within five minutes of Danny Boyle’s fantastic opening ceremony, there they were, declaring game, set and match for the UK state.

All of it utter nonsense, and all of it really beginning to grate with the Scottish people who just want to enjoy the Games free from politicians trying to highjack this spectacle for their own ends.

How people vote in the independence referendum of Scotland’s will be dependent on many things. Should the Westminster Tories continue to determine Scotland’s future? Would Scotland be better off in control of its own resources? Does Scotland want to make its own peaceful contribution to world affairs without being drawn into illegal wars? These are the issues that will determine the outcome of the referendum, not a Games, regardless of their scale or success.

And anyway, Team GB is as much my team as it is the most enthusiastic fan from any other part of these isles.

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While I would naturally like to see a Scottish team march round the Olympic stadium under the St Andrew’s cross as an independent nation, I have been cheering on Team GB till I’m hoarse. I recognise the immense pride of Scottish athletes in representing their country and of course they should be able to stand under their current national flag and take great satisfaction in being a member of Team GB.

As an independent nation we will be represented by a team Scotland in any future Olympics. That is what normal independent countries do in international sporting events. But for now we are part of the UK and all of us in Scotland are enjoying our team’s success, regardless of how we vote or what we think about Scotland’s constitutional future.

But probably the most ludicrous notion is that the Games has shown that we in Scotland will have to choose between being Scottish or British. This is a theme that has gained much currency amongst anti-independence commentators recently and shows a singular, probably willful, misunderstanding about what independence is about.

What we want with independence is to complete the powers of our Parliament and take responsibility for our own affairs. We want to recalibrate the political relationship of the UK state and it has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘Britishness’. That is a social union and none of it goes anywhere with independence. We will still share a British island and we will still enjoy our fantastic relationship, heritage and British culture.

But in cheering on Team GB does this mean that I have been entirely happy or satisfied with all the arrangements for the London Olympics? Of course not. Like the Tories in opposition, and more recently like Labour in raising concerns about the GS4 shambles, I have tried as much as possible to hold the Westminster Government to account – that is my job as an MP.

Olympic contracts are one example. The fact that Scottish firms got only 25 out of 1433 tier one contracts was a matter of concern for business in Scotland – just as it was for people in Wales who missed out even more. Holding Government to account is our responsibility and thank goodness we did.

But these issues have come and gone and within a few days so will the Olympics. In two years’ time Glasgow will host the Commonwealth Games where we will compete as team Scotland. What is as certain as Scottish gold is that those self-same anti-independence politicians who have so valiantly tried to politicise these Games will be screaming blue murder at any perceived notion of nationalist politicisation.

But do you know what? Just as the London Olympics has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum, neither will the Glasgow Commonwealth Games.

Pete Wishart MP is SNP Westminster spokesperson on Culture, Media, Olympics and Sport


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Show comments
  • http://atoryblog.blogspot.com Man in a Shed

    One of the least attractive things about the SNP is the way it tries to manufacture and fan grievance and division.

  • Nicholas

    “What we want with independence is to complete the powers of our Parliament and take responsibility for our own affairs. We want to recalibrate the political relationship of the UK state and it has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘Britishness’. That is a social union and none of it goes anywhere with independence. We will still share a British island and we will still enjoy our fantastic relationship, heritage and British culture.”

    The words cake and eat it come to mind. But will that “fantastic relationship” still include the Anglophobe carping of unpleasant Scots like Away With The Haggis’? Will independence soften his hatred or Balkanise it?

    • Postolympics

      There seems to be a view held that after independence Scots lose their British identity. Can someone run that logic past me again? Its as though it was like some exclusive club that you joined when you become part of the English Empire

  • Nicholas

    “Should the Westminster Tories continue to determine Scotland’s future?”

    Come now, Scotland’s Labour has been determining England’s future long enough. That is the nature of the current arrangements and cuts two ways.

    • JPJ2

      No it does not cut both ways. There have been many occasions when Scotland has not receivedt the government it voted for and very few occasions when England hasn’t. So much so that on many occasions it would not have mattered if every single person in Scotland had voted against the Tories, the Tories woulsd still have won-that is the simple truth, go examine the FACTS before talking nonsense.

    • postolympics

      I have voted in eight general elections. On five occasions Scots have not got the color of political party they voted for. The current system cuts one way and one way only.

  • his5s4g

    So much hate – we are both far stronger together than apart!
    England may well impose Tories on Scotland every so often but please remember England did have to put up with Gordon Brown who was only elected by the good people of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

    • JPJ2

      Illogical nonsense. “we are both far stronger together than apart!”
      so said the lion to the lamb :-)

    • postolympics

      ….. and Tony Blair and Sir Alex Douglas-Hume and Ramsay McDonald and David Cameron and Campbell Bannerman….. I count ten prime ministers in the last 100 years who could claim they were Scots. About half of all prime ministers. Now which one will you complain about because they were Scots

  • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

    In 1990
    Norway – a hydrocarbon-rich, small, independent European country – decided to
    start saving the proceeds from oil revenue in a sovereign wealth fund.
    Today
    that fund owns 1% of all shares on all global stock markets, and is worth $512
    BILLION, forecast to rise to $765 BILLION by 2014. The current political debate
    in Norway is about what percentage of the fund returns should be spent in the
    short to medium term without overheating the economy.

    Meanwhile,
    Westminster spent our oil and gas revenues on Trident, war crimes, PFI
    payments, crooked bankers, plus the usual corruption, and now debates how much
    to slash and burn public spending.

    If you’re
    still wondering about the relevance of this to Scotland, ask a grown-up.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

    In 1990
    Norway – a hydrocarbon-rich, small, independent European country – decided to
    start saving the proceeds from oil revenue in a sovereign wealth fund.
    Today
    that fund owns 1% of all shares on all global stock markets, and is worth $512
    BILLION, forecast to rise to $765 BILLION by 2014. The current political debate
    in Norway is about what percentage of the fund returns should be spent in the
    short to medium term without overheating the economy.

    Meanwhile,
    Westminster spent our oil and gas revenues on Trident, war crimes, PFI
    payments, crooked bankers, plus the usual corruption, and now debates how much
    to slash and burn public spending.

    If you’re
    still wondering about the relevance of this to Scotland, ask a grown-up.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

    @Alan Eastwood..Scotland is already a member of the EU and will remain so after Indy, but if Scotland were regarded as a new state and need to re-apply then so would England be a new state and need to re-apply as the UK ceases to exist after Scotland leaves and bang goes all those precious opt-outs,So it is in England interest that both countries are regarded as successor states.

    Joining the Euro is NOT a pre-condition of Euro membership as the Czech Republic and Sweden prove as both have declined to Join the Euro.

    Now before you prattle on about the fantasy that the UK will still exist and Scotland will be a new state [pure fantasy] …a word of advice.
    If Scotland is a new state and the UK state remained then all debts belong to the UK state and therefore Scotland starts off debt free whilst we are fastracked into the EU as their largest oil and gas producer [and germany’s main supply of oil] and rUK/ struggles with debt with vastly less income and and a balance of payments defecit that has doubled over night and the only thing keeping Sterling afloat is that Scotland tempoarily is remaining in Sterling and backing it with oil…Scotland leaves sterling then it goes in the sh****r

    @ ” it is time the UK government determine a date, sooner rather than later, and the questions for a Scottish Referendum. They have the power, they have to use it.”” ………

    …..No they dont, a point that Cameron has already conceded. The Scots govt is mandated to have the referendum in the 2nd half of the parlimentry term and it has nothing to do with the UK govt, funny how all the Britnats blocked a referendum in the last parliament yet now they are in a rush before the UK economy crashes totally.

    @”It is high time we demanded an English Parliament ” And which political party do you think will deliver that? there is none unless you count the borderline extreme right wing English democrats with total membership of two men and a dog…..Dont worry be patient. Scots Independence delivers English Independence and an English parliament…
    Glad we can help out…So much ignorance coming from the English side…dont you get informed of anything down there?..Seriously!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Richard-McHarg/100001198354455 Richard McHarg

    It’s regrettable that many of the posters on this article are so poorly
    informed, but that is the result of misinformation by London-based media
    productions.

    Firstly, opinions re Team GB are mixed in
    Scotland. However, as with Pete Wishart, I’m delighted to support the
    athletes from these islands, irrespective of which nation that is. I’m
    also a Scottish nationalist. Being a supporter of the dissolution of
    The Treaty of Union doesn’t make me anti-English; nor does being a
    member of the Scottish National Party. There are many English members
    of the SNP, including MPs, MSPs, councillors and activists. If they
    regarded the SNP as, somehow, anti-English, I imagine that they would
    not have joined. All my English friends living in Scotland voted SNP in
    May 2011. They are now contemplating how they’ll vote in the
    referendum. Should the people of Scotland vote for self-determination,
    there is nothing to stop any English person living and working in
    Scotland, whether they are English or Scottish citizens. After all,
    people of many nationalities currently live and work abroad.

    There are far too many doing all they can to create an antagonistic
    atmosphere re this debate, and most of it is coming from those of a
    Unionist persuasion. Scottish independence is about taking political
    control of our own affairs and is not about antagonising our closest
    neighbour and friend.

    We are still seeing the subsidy myth wheeled out at every opportunity.
    It is incorrect! Scotland currently supplies at least 9.6% of UK
    revenue with 8.4% of the population, while receiving, at best, 9.3% of
    expenditure. These are Westminster’s own figures!

    Come the referendum, Team GB’s medal count will have no influence on the
    vote. It will be about how best to govern our economy and foreign
    affairs. Decisions on currency, Nato, etc. will be for the government
    of Scotland to decide after independence, depending on which political
    party is given a mandate to take these decisions, but they will be
    decisions for us to take without foreign interference.

    Time for a lot of you to grow up and do more research!

    Lastly, London has made a fantastic job of the games. There are many
    delicate political issues attached to the funding etc, but,
    nevertheless, it has all gone pretty much to plan, and the organisers
    and staff can be proud of what they have achieved.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

      A well thought out articulate post M8

    • Nicholas

      “There are far too many doing all they can to create an antagonistic
      atmosphere re this debate, and most of it is coming from those of a
      Unionist persuasion.”

      Clearly you haven’t been reading the posts of Away With The Haggis’ who seems confused whether he is a Scots Nationalist or a Scots Labour Party supporter with his foot in the Westminster door commenting on British politics. He’s doing a pretty good job in the antagonising business.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

    Team G.B……Team Gordon Brown??

  • Craig Murray

    Now..after the 2014 commonwealths we’ll have a world class Velodrome, Swimming Pool and Athletics Facitlities paid for by Scots, for Scots ,with out the aid of Lottery or UK government funding….We’ve already got world class mountain biking routes, Golf Courses, Bowling Greens, Rugby and Football Stadiums, Archery Ranges, Shooting Ranges…So why does the UK Government think were gonna loose out after Independence….We’ll do what they did 15 years ago and target the sports we’ve got a chance of winning in and push them hard……

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Peter-Thomson/704963884 Peter Thomson

    Great Britain and Irish Lions works, GB and Europe Ryder Cup team works, Curtis Cup, GB Atheltics works – there are lots of sports where GB is made up from the best competitors across the main island …. can anyone explain just because the Scots decide we want to run our own country, because we are entitled to under international law and there is no UK constitutional law that can stop us since ‘unlimited sovereignty’ has no place in Scots Law or constitutional practice (both of which were protected for all time by the Treaty of Union) and Westminster has no rights under the Treaty of Union to alter the Treaty (basically making the Scotland Act 1998 section 5 & 30 uneforceable as how can you claim a position of unlimited sovereignty that does not exist in Scottish jurisdiction with out renegotiating the original Treaty?) that team GB has to be abandoned simply because a few right wingers take the hump?

    Raises the question – just who is being petty around here?

  • RedBlueYellowTories

    Excellent piece by Wishart. The Unionists are laughable, on both sides of the border.

    In fact, when you dwell on such a pedigree of
    cods-wallop, you begin to understand how patronising the premise is. Ahem…

    …we can win medals together, *therefore* the political reality of the
    two nations, and of Scotland’s *real* importance in the UK [as often glossed by
    London hacks] can itself be somehow airbrushed away – on the back of a
    fortnight’s British jingoism, on the back, even, of a bleedin’ bike race???

    Do you eejits assume Scots cannot distinguish between politics and the
    TV? [many will already be flicking through the channels in search of ‘something
    else’ – irrespective of the excellent sporting spectacle]

    Does you think that the stunning antics of Bradley Wiggins will undo the
    London yarn behind Trident? Westminster’s policy on [unwanted] Nuclear energy
    in Scotland? The dozens of positive reasons – *actual* reasons – already
    offered up by the Indy camps in the SNP [not to mention Labour, hell, even the
    Tories].

    A crude and embarrassing assertion. To be clear, I’m for ALL the
    athletes in the games, but please stop force feeding us the jingoistic BritNat
    crap, and please, please don’t mix up a global sporting event with the
    political truth many hundreds of thousands in Scotland are very much at odds
    with.

    The entire debate is a POLITICAL one.
    Every civic nationalist understands that. Further, Scotland is not going to
    float away into the Atlantic after independence! The social ties that bind us
    all in these islands are not going to dissolve. Your political Union is about to go the way of the Dodo/

    Then, I dare say, might we see sporting events when the nations of the
    islands come together under one banner, on occasion?? Only – as neighbouring
    equals.

    I’ll be cheering for them, as well as for my own Country. But to look at
    the Olympics currently and manifest it like some ham fisted potter into a
    poliitcal statement is just nonsense.

    Just one, of many, many reasons, why Mr.Martin’s
    piece is little more than patronising propaganda rubbish.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8amY2xHjCs

    Though I doubt the bulk of the posters on here might grasp it any – seeing as they seem to be devoid of any knowledge of the constitutional question in Scotland anyway.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

      @26f6add72233b2109a82205492700b7c:disqus
      Good post M8
      SAOR ALBA 2014 AGUS GU BRATH

    • Nicholas

      But will you win your referendum that is the question. And if you don’t what will your purpose be then?

  • Fergus Pickering

    Even by the standards of the Scots this is ballsachingly boring. If you want independence then vote for it in a referendum and get 50% of your fellows to do likewise. Then it will happen. In the meantime do stop being so rude. It is childish.

    • RedBlueYellowTories

      Yawwnnnn. Heard it. Bored now.

      Newsflash picky, we’re gonna ;o)

  • CraigStrachan

    “Does Scotland want to make its own peaceful contribution to world affairs without being drawn into illegal wars”

    The answer to that largely depends on whether Scotland stays in NATO.

    What’s your position on that, Pete?

  • William Blakes Ghost

    Whilst everybody is enjoying the spectacle of the greatest Games on
    earth there is one group of people who are doing their level best to
    spoil it.

    Yes politicians! Now STFU……

  • Hexhamgeezer

    Apparently the theme tune for the Glasgae Commonwealth Games is going to be Chariots of Ire.

  • Radford_NG

    11 Aug, c.1.50pm BST…….This ,thanks to James VI & I ,is the United Kingdom of Great Britain [Northern Ireland is an add-on].They shared the tradition of their kingships being highly elective: a king who got it wrong would come to a sticky end;on the battle-field or in his own sewers(Pontefract or Sterling).United they became the greatest country in the world,creating a whole new world order.Jane Austen was born in to a world where civilisation had not changed in 5,000 years.Twenty years after her death the British had changed it for ever [Sir Walter Scott died on it’s eve].It would be a very bad thing to destroy such a successful Union in the name of parochialism.[ I wait for the day we have an ever increasing Union with Jamaica;and all H.Ms. other Dominions and Territories.]

    • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

      @ Radford_NG
      “This ,thanks to James VI & I ,is the United Kingdom of Great Britain ”
      “The
      United Kingdom, as the name suggests, was created by the Union of the Crowns in
      1603”
      “Wrong
      on all counts. The Union of the Crowns is, and always has been, a historical
      and legal misnomer. The Crowns of the two countries were not united in 1603.
      The crowns, and the two countries, remained separate. All that happened was
      that the same head
      came for the first time to wear the separate crowns of two separate countries.
      What happened in 1706/07 was that Anne, Queen of Scotland, entered into a
      treaty with Anne, Queen of England, to merge the two countries into a single
      state in international law. Then and only then was there a United Kingdom.”…..
      …..Quote from Prof Robert Black Scotland’s top Law Prof in reply to the same mistake made by a respected journalist made in today’s Herald

      • Fergus Pickering

        Yeah Sport, and you know WHY there was a United Kingdom. Because Scotland had bankrupted herself by foolish investments. The English bailed her out Yes they did. Does it sound familiar – Scottish banks, greedy Scottish bankers…

        • http://twitter.com/MarkEMacLachlan Mark MacLachlan

          Do pick up a history book once in a while, something as basic as Louise Yeoman’s ‘Reportage Scotland’ should furnish you with some simple facts. There’s a good fellow.

        • postolympics

          Read about the 1705 Alien Act. So much for friendly neighbors. Then come up to date with your reading such things as The McCrone Report and the redrawing of Scotland’s Maritime boundaries…… and you wonder why Scots want independence?!

  • John Guest

    Well balanced personality – this chap seems to have a chip on both shoulders!

  • Alan Eastwood

    Well dream on Scotty. Your esteemed leader Alec Salmond tells the world that he will keep the £. He also tells everyone that an Independent Scotland will join the EU. As Scotland would be, in effect, a new member they will, no ifs nor buts, have to join the Euro. I bet he doesn’t tell the Scots that.
    It is high time that we stopped giving Scotland more money than the English get. It is high time we demanded an English Parliament and it is time the UK government determine a date, sooner rather than later, and the questions for a Scottish Referendum. They have the power, they have to use it.

    • 2trueblue

      Spot on.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

      @Alan Eastwood..Scotland is already a member of the EU and will remain so after Indy, but if Scotland were regarded as a new state and need to re-apply then so would England be a new state and need to re-apply as the UK ceases to exist after Scotland leaves and bang goes all those precious opt-outs,So it is in England interest that both countries are regarded as successor states.
      Joining the Euro is NOT a pre-condition of Euro membership as the Czech Republic and Sweden prove as both have declined to Join the Euro.
      Now before you prattle on about the fantasy that the UK will still exist and Scotland will be a new state [pure fantasy] …a word of advice. If Scotland is a new state and the UK state remained then all debts belong to the UK state and therefore Scotland starts off debt free whilst we are fastracked into the EU as their largest oil and gas producer [and germany’s main supply of oil] and rUK/ struggles with debt with vastly less income and and a balance of payments defecit that has doubled over night and the only thing keeping Sterling afloat is that Scotland tempoarily is remaining in Sterling and backing it with oil…Scotland leaves sterling then it goes in the sh****r
      @ ” it is time the UK government determine a date, sooner rather than later, and the questions for a Scottish Referendum. They have the power, they have to use it.”” ………
      …..No they dont a point that Cameron has already conceded. The Scots govt is mandated to have the referendum in the 2nd half of the parlimentry term and it has nothing to do with the UK govt, funny how all the Britnats blocked a referendum in the last parliament yet now they are in a rush before the UK economy crashes totally.
      @”It is high time we demanded an English Parliament ” And which political party do you think will deliver that? there is none unless you count the borderline extreme right wing English democrats with total membership of two men and a dog…..Dont worry be patient. Scots Independence delivers English Independence and an English parliament…Glad we can help out…So much ignorance coming from the English side…dont you get informed of anything down there?..Seriously!

      • Alan Eastwood

        Your first sentence is incorrect DWH. The United Kingdom is a member. If you break away, as I most certainly hope that you do, you will have to apply for membership as will Wales, Northern Ireland if they, hopefully, follow you into EU servitude. England too would have to apply BUT Such a break will mean a referendum in England and the English will say NO and we will build, again, Jerusalem in these green and hallowed hills.
        As for your point that Cameron has conceded that the UK government has no power. Grow up man (or woman). The Attorney General has a different view and Cameon aint no lawyer.
        As for you generous final paragraph. When you have paid back what you owe us, when you come to terms with the high number of slaves to the welfare system you will be broke within a year. Never forget that the EU will demand your part of the North Sea gas and Oil as part payment for your entry.
        Dream on Haggis

        • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

          Heres me thinking that you were going to offer an intelligent response. but as I have come to expect from ill-informed posters from south of the Rio Tweed its just the usual right wing UKIP-esque paranoid anti-EU conspiricy fantasy and some crap about “Jerusalem in these green and hallowed hills” which harks back to a mythical England that has never and will never exist.
          Wales is actually part of England since it was absorbed into England in 1536 and Northern Irelands status reverts back to it pre-1707 status of an English colony, So England is responsible for them both. The most likely scenario is England like Scotland wil be accepted as a successor state and will not have re-apply for EU membership..now does’nt that make you happy . ..
          @” When you have paid back what you owe us, when”…We owe England nothing. We will however take with us our per-capita share of the UK debt less of course any bank debt [we are not responsible for that] and you get to choose between decomissioning all nuke devices or spending 100 billion [and 10 years to build] on relocating Trident then another 100 billion on upgrading Trident..I know which I would choose and what England cant afford. ….
          Finally Cameron did concede about the timing of the referendum and question wording around two months ago…You need to keep up with the news…..The Scottish people are Soveriegn in Scotland and not Westminster…That is just a fact in
          effect it doesn’t matter what Cameron or Moore flap about claiming because in
          constitutional terms Scotland is (and always has been) a representative
          democracy as opposed to the parliamentary democracy
          of England.
          In 1953 Lord Cooper stated in his judgement in McCormack vs the
          Lord Advocate that the Treaty of Union protected the people of Scotland’s sovereignty
          sine die ( a point conceded by the Lord Advocate) and could find no basis in
          the Treaty of Union for the assumption of purely English constitutional norms
          by the UK Parliament and that any such assumption was perverse and contrary to
          the Treaty of Union.
          The reality is that under independent Scots Law and the
          Treaty of Union the UK Government has no right to claim Scottish sovereignty
          for itself. At no time since 1707 have the sovereign people of Scotland seceded
          their sovereignty to the UK Government at Westminster
          In
          the aftermath of the 1998 Scotland Act it was realised by this judgement has
          rendered section 5 and 30 of the 1998 Scotland Act unenforceable Westminster
          there was no legal enforcing body with respect to sections 5 and 30 of the Scotland
          Act and so Blair cooked up the ‘Supreme Court’. As we have seen in AXA and
          others vs the Scottish Government the Supreme Court could not allow the
          challenge – even though all the legal experts were certain they would set aside
          the bill – because it was the expressed will of the people of Scotland.

          In effect if, as the referendum vote certainly has, the
          support of the sovereign people of Scotland. As the SNP gained in May 2011 48%
          of the votes cast and pro independence party votes represented 56% of the votes
          cast, the sovereign Scottish people have spoken. Westminster’s cu tactics
          to seek control of the Scottish referendum and control the question asked are
          in breach of the UN Treaty of Human Rights (of which the UK Parliament is a
          signatory). The referendum will happen in Autumn 2014 because that is what the
          sovereign people of Scotland gave their authority to their duly elected
          Scottish Parliament to do by dint of the SNP majority.

          In effect if, as the referendum vote certainly has, the
          support of the sovereign people of Scotland. As the SNP gained in May 2011 48%
          of the votes cast and pro independence party votes represented 56% of the votes
          cast, the sovereign Scottish people have spoken. Westminster’s cu tactics
          to seek control of the Scottish referendum and control the question asked are
          in breach of the UN Treaty of Human Rights (of which the UK Parliament is a
          signatory). The referendum will happen in Autumn 2014 because that is what the
          sovereign people of Scotland gave their authority to their duly elected
          Scottish Parliament to do by dint of the SNP majority.

          • NIcholas

            So you are entitled to your nationalism, pride in your country and your desire for self-determination but you tell us that a song “harks back to a mythical England that has never and will never exist.”?

            Tell me if your referendum returns a ‘no’ vote to stay within the Union will you still be so hateful towards the English?

        • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

          Scotland
          IS a state. The dictionary defines a, “State”, as – An area or
          community with its own government, or forming a federation under a sovereign
          government. Scotland qualifies under both definitions. She is a country, has
          her own government, her own independent legal, education and religious systems
          and two distinctive languages of her own.
          The
          United Kingdom Government is a political union entered into by ONLY the
          sovereign parliaments of England & Scotland. Furthermore, while England,
          with her Welsh Principality and her Irish Province, is a constitutional
          monarchy making her people subjects of the state, the Scottish people are
          legally sovereign and that same monarchy is actually legally their subject

          Are you
          seriously attempting to claim, that by some sort of act of God, the Scots
          ceased to be sovereign in Scotland by the Act of the Union of the Parliaments?
          As a matter of stone cold fact that actual treaty protects their sovereignty
          and there have been several declarations made by the Scots reaffirming their
          sovereignty. The last one by the Holyrood government, last session, and it was
          a unanimous, cross-party yes vote

          Are you
          seriously attempting to claim, that by some sort of act of God, the Scots
          ceased to be sovereign in Scotland by the Act of the Union of the Parliaments?

          As a matter of stone cold fact that actual treaty protects their sovereignty
          and there have been several declarations made by the Scots reaffirming their
          sovereignty. The last one by the Holyrood government, last session, and it was
          a unanimous, cross-party yes vote

        • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

          NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT<<< Scotlands Motto
          Argumentum ad ignorantiam<<< English right wing nuts motto
          Dico tibi verum, libertas optimum rerum, nunquam servili sub nexu, vivito fili',

        • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

          @ Allan eastwood….” Your first sentence is incorrect DWH. The United Kingdom is a member”<<<<<
          I never said the UK was not a member of the EU, the point I was making is that Scotland is a member of the EU through its membership of the UK Union as is the same with England

    • jessie

      Check your facts London gets considerably more allowance per head of population as does northern ireland- both higher than Scotland , England is more densely populated than scotland so gets more per area, so whats your gripe? We just happen to have a government who get their priorities right – free prescriptions, free university tuition etc. – can understand your soor grapes you must be pig sick. its your politicians you need to speak to- they are squandering your money.

    • jessie

      check your facts Scotland gets less than than London, Northern Ireland per head of population greater England gets more per area as it is more densely populated- you need to get yourselves a government who mqnqge your money better and stop moaning.

  • Radford_NG

    11 Aug. c. 11.25am. BST…..If Scotland became independent why should it not take responsibility for West Dalriada : thats where the Scots came from in the first place.

  • Mark Smith

    As much as I’m a supporter of Scottish independence, Pete’s last remark is most definitely not true.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

    The all inclusive “Team Jeebee” excludes Northern Ireland in its title. Northern Ireland is not in Jeebee, check your passoprt for facts

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Spammo-Twatbury/100002426967566 Spammo Twatbury

      That’s because as far as the IOC is concerned, Northern Ireland is part of Ireland. NI residents may choose to compete for GB on citizenship grounds, but the IOC regards them as Irish by default.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

        Interesting…. that should please the Orangemen

  • JC

    “We want to……take responsibility for our own affairs”. I suspect many in England would wish you well. but Scottish politicians continue the delusion that the English would continue to subsidise Scotland. That’s NOT “Independence”!

    JC

    • http://www.facebook.com/Danceswithhaggis Danceswith Haggis

      Ignornace, delusion and fantasy, ..just three of the many related words that can be used to describe your post….The Scots subsidy junkie myth was blown apart months ago, even senior Tories say its a myth…Really, do try and keep up with the news.
      you should really be concentrating on how a broke rUK/England would cope without Scots revenues which would at a stroke double your already in the s****er balance of payments defecit

    • http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.martin Alasdair Martin

      “Scottish politicians continue the delusion that the English would continue to subsidise Scotland.” – Really? How did you ever come to that conclusion. Away and get educated on the issue before you start commenting on it.

    • http://www.facebook.com/CharliePM Charles Patrick O’Brien

      England has never subsidised any country in their 900 year history,they have always been users ,abusers and takers,charity is not in their psyche,so don’t try to spin that one.Scotland is and always has been self-sufficient in food and power (not counting oil and gas)

      • Andy

        Nice bit of anti-English bigotry there.

      • UlyssesReturns

        Scoland is certainly self-sufficient in chips (of the shoulder variety).

    • alexsandr

      JC’s post has got the sweaties upset hans’t it!

      I think if Scotland does break away the divorce will be long, bitter and damaging.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Lynda-Williamson/1820079153 Lynda Williamson

      JC – Not that I doubt your word, but could you reference your claim that “Scottish politicians continue the delusion that the English would continue to subsidise Scotland”. It’s not a claim that I’m familiar with

  • UlyssesReturns

    I no more believe that you “have been cheering on Team GB till I’m hoarse”, if a non-Scot was involved, than I believe in Santa Claus. I no longer object to being lied to by politicians, it seems to be the new norm, but I do object when they think we are stupid enough to believe them.

    • Bill Cameron

      Precisely! This article is nothing more than another attempt at raising dissension by the SNP. Methinks Pete Wishart protests a little too much, quite apart from testing his readers’ credulity way beyond realistic limits.

      • tele_machus

        The Scots nation will soon be clamouring to stay, while the English, mindful of the West Lothian question will want to cast Scotland adrift

        • peever1745

          Oh I hope you are correct in that England will cas us adrift.I doubt very much though that we Scots will be clamouring to stay.Why would a self sufficient country want to stay part of the UK who is bleeding us dry?

          • David Ossitt

            Why would a self sufficient country want to stay part of the UK who is bleeding us dry?

            Dim, daft and deluded.

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